A New Look for East Bay Street?

[stjr]

Stjr, are they running streetcars and light rail on the same track in San Jose?

I believe this to be the case.  Reading their transit map, it is not absolutely clear.  However, I believe from the description I found below on their transit site about the historic trolleys, this must be as the this trolley apparently is only for special times and is classified as a "light rail" option.  I have been along these tracks and I recall other, more substantial vehicles than these historic ones.  This is backed up by other images I found as shown below.

Also, I am not sure the cars you think are parked aren't just "stop action" in the photo.  Searching the web, it appears in other pictures of this system, that these could be travel lanes.  I didn't see any parking meters or signs along the curbs either which would indicate the allowance of parking. I think the main point here is that almost any combination of designs has been used somewhere and that these applications can serve as inspiration and guidance for what might work best for us.  We should keep an open mind about all the options until more specific constraints or goals are determined.

Light Rail - Historic Trolley (920)   

Turn By Turn Route Directions 
VTA will operate Historic Trolley service between San Jose Diridon Transit Center and Civic Center Station from Saturday, November 29, 2008 and continuing through Saturday, December 27, 2008.

Service will run only Saturdays from approximately 2:30 p.m. to 10:00 p.m.. Headways are 60 minutes to coordinate with regular light rail service schedules.

Please note: Although the Historic Trolley Service will run in a loop between San Jose Diridon Station and Civic Center Stations, the trolleys will proceed to the Guadalupe Division for operator break periods after each loop. Riders must exit at Civic Center Station and wait for the next southbound trolley to arrive, or transfer to regular VTA bus or light rail service.

Here is an interesting twist: Elevated!

[civil42806]

"As to trees, having just visited Savannah, the live oaks would do the trick.   They now have oaks decades old that are turning into magnificent trees lining their downtown streets and making things special and unique.  I have never understood why Jax replants its trees downtown after they reach about 6 inches in diameter.  If Savannah can make larger trees work, so should we."


Trees, trees, trees more and more.  Hate the habit of jax to plant non native palms around town.  Would love to see more live oaks, sweetgums, sycamores.  Concentrate on native plants, no more crepe myrtles.

[thelakelander]

Stjr, are they running streetcars and light rail on the same track in San Jose?

I believe this to be the case.  Reading their transit map, it is not absolutely clear.  However, I believe from the description I found below on their transit site about the historic trolleys, this must be as the this trolley apparently is only for special times and is classified as a "light rail" option.  I have been along these tracks and I recall other, more substantial vehicles than these historic ones.  This is backed up by other images I found as shown below.

After talking a look at google earth, this is the VTA light rail system.  The images above are the downtown transit mall, which is a block wide loop.

Also, I am not sure the cars you think are parked aren't just "stop action" in the photo.  Searching the web, it appears in other pictures of this system, that these could be travel lanes.  I didn't see any parking meters or signs along the curbs either which would indicate the allowance of parking.

You are correct and I was wrong.  There is no parallel parking along transit mall.



However, there are a series of pretty large surface parking lots.  While the situation is different from our Bay Street, they've done a great job of shielding surface parking with heavy landscaping.

I think the main point here is that almost any combination of designs has been used somewhere and that these applications can serve as inspiration and guidance for what might work best for us.  We should keep an open mind about all the options until more specific constraints or goals are determined.

I agree.  However, at this point some goals and specific constraints have already been exposed.  They include JTA's plan to one day run streetcars down Bay to the stadium area, JEDC's desire for medians on Bay and that we don't have the money in hand to construct an extensive rail system overnight.

Knowing this, now is the time to properly plan to help reduce the overall costs on something we clearly don't have the money for and aren't close to funding.  A couple of ways to clearly save money are:

1. Reduce the amount of track necessary in a potential starter rail corridor.

Single, with passing sidings accomplishes the same thing initially as 100% double tracking.  The major difference is one is cheaper, thus more affordable, making it more realistic to get something off the ground in the short term.

2. Integrate planning.

If JEDC wants to tear up the street for medians, at least make sure the streetscape plans are designed to easily accomodate rail, in the present or future.  If placed in the median (if designed to be wide enough), it would reduce the cost of the rail project because it would not involve ripping up two miles of newly laid asphalt to lay in track, a couple of years later.  In the event, we wanted to upgrade the line to light rail standards, track on it's own ROW (the median) would be more efficient than track shared with vehicular traffic.

3. Work with existing environment.

Transit malls can be great in the proper context.  From being involved in the past with a development project on East Bay, all those little brick commercial buildings along that stretch need all the parallel parking they can get.  In the future this may change, depending on what eventually happens with the courthouse property.  With the future of the street's south side being an unknown, at least a row of parallel parking should remain in the short term.  If any thing, all of this highlights the negative side of not having a coordinated long term vision in place.  Because of this, its twice as hard to build synergy in the core with a mix of new and existing development.

[Coolyfett]

Bay Street is the WRONG street for this idea, I would say but this on Main Street from the bridge all the way down to Springfield.....Invest in more Lounges, clubs, bars & places to eat. Send the Skyway where it NEEDS to go!!!..... To the Sports Complex, Bay Street does not need to lose lanes. *shaking head* what are they doing??? Get the Skyway to the Sport Complex. Pretty Flowers and trees are for Main Street!

[Coolyfett]

P.S. I want to reiterate that we should emphasize the trolleys and jettison the Skyway.   It is a blight on downtown and not the panacea people keep making it to be.  Could you see someone in NYC leaving their Fifth or Park Avenue apartment and walking under a monster concrete Skyway support beam and track shoved up against the face of their building?  Really!!!!  If you want residential downtown, that thing needs to go.  See other MJ boards for my previous postings with more comments on this.

Nope!! Jax ain't New York City...the Skyway belongs to Jacksonville. It is not a blight to me. I like how it looks all futuristic and stuff. It just needs to to connect the surrounding neighborhoods.

[JeffreyS]

I like the skyway but I like streetcars more. I want a mix of streetcar and skyway downtown.

[DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE]

I'm sure there is no accommodation for future rail/streetcar.  It seems not to be part of JEDC's bag of tricks.

I suspect this project is using monies from the city's Tree Fund.  It's one of the few places anywhere that might work as a funding source.

It would be better to compress the street and create angled parking to support E. Bay's restaurants, entertainment, and businesses - and adding trees in parking islands and streetscape would create a better pedestrian and streetscape experience.

But

Looks like the priority is to expedite game day traffic (15 times each year) instead of the priority to support local business (350 days each year).  That's why over 2-million bucks are committed to invest in reversable lanes.  Imagine the streetscape or streetcar improvements that money would buy.

[deathstar]

Is one of the reasons for the near to nothing plans for light rail.. noise? I've recently watched a few movies with rail cars, and noticed noise. I'm sure most of the routes would take it through business areas, but it's made me wonder. I honestly don't think it would be any louder than vehicles, but what would other people think?

[thelakelander]

Streetcar and light rail systems don't make nearly as much noise as cars, trucks and buses.


http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/01/23/streetcar-improve-the-urban-environment/

LRT is quiet
Light rail vehicles produce less noise than diesel buses and much less noise than the equivalent volume of automobile traffic. Smooth, welded rails and vibration absorbing fasteners eliminate much of the noise we associate with rail travel.

http://www.ggw.org/rrtc/learn/10reasons.htm

[deathstar]

That's a relief, I honestly just had no idea if it was quieter or as noisy as vehicles. I have hope for light rail coming to Jacksonville in the future, just not under Hate'n Peyton's rule.

[Jason]

I like the skyway but I like streetcars more. I want a mix of streetcar and skyway downtown.

Exactly, streetcars should co-exist with the skyway, however, the skyway should be completed and become the major mover downtown.  Let the streetcars fill in the gaps and connect the historic neighborhoods to the core.

[exnewsman]

If anyone saw it - JTA CEO Mike Blaylock said he wants to see streetcars replace the trolleys downtown.  It was on the latest Making Moves TV show. It was after the segment talking about the success of Portland's streetcar system in bringing $2.3 B in development w/in 3 blocks of the streetcar line.  The questions is - will Jacksonville fund a streetcar system?

[Coolyfett]

What is faster, streetcar or skyway train? There is no chance for a vehicle to crash into a skyway train, do streetcars get in crashes with regular vehicles often?

[BridgeTroll]

There is a definite learning curve... When I lived in San Jose and VTA was being constructed there were accidents every day until drivers learned to obey the signs and rules of the road when sharing the same space as streetcars...

[thelakelander]

If anyone saw it - JTA CEO Mike Blaylock said he wants to see streetcars replace the trolleys downtown.  It was on the latest Making Moves TV show. It was after the segment talking about the success of Portland's streetcar system in bringing $2.3 B in development w/in 3 blocks of the streetcar line.  The questions is - will Jacksonville fund a streetcar system?

The question is, is JTA and the city ready to put their money where their mouth is at?  We don't need to go through federal hoola hoops or wait for an Obama handout.  We already have money set aside for rapid mass transit.  

Find a way to spend less on ROW acquisition (streetcars run on public ROW) to reduce needed land acquisition costs and use the BJP money already in place to start construction on an initial rail corridor.  We can then use that initial completed phase as proof and the local investment to leverage federal funds needed to create an extensive regional network.