Police State Downtown.

[NotNow]

I challenge you to show me where I argued that the Republicans would win in the fall.  Once again, you are not only making things up (lying), you are attempting to change the debate subject onto something else.  As for your usual well researched post:

1.  I worship no man or woman.  I have great respect for those that give more than you will ever know in the service of their country.

2.  Your "Hero of the Truth" is an avowed communist and works for Il Manifesto, the communist newspaper of Italy.

3.  Your "Hero" is alive and well.  She was in a car that failed to heed the orders of US troops at a checkpoint blocking Baghdad International Airport and came under fire.  An Italian agent was killed in the incident.  I see that you blame the US Troops for the incident, and not the Italians.  How surprising.

4.  Your "Hero's" name is Giuliana Sgrena.  She made the statements that I referenced (“That won't happen. We are siding with the oppressed Iraqi people. No Iraqi would kidnap us”. Sgrena and her companions went on to explain that they were in no danger from Iraqi insurgents saying that Doornbos did not "understand the situation. We are anti-imperialists, anti-capitalists, communists, the Iraqis only kidnap American sympathizers, the enemies of the Americans have nothing to fear.") while on an airliner enroute to Baghdad. 

5.  Your contempt for American fighting men is most obvious when you speak of John McCain.  He was a prisoner of war for five and one half years.  He refused early release by the NV unless his fellow prisoners were also freed.  His heroism during that period is well documented.  Your lack of candor and your contempt in this case and in reference to other men and women who have sacrificed for this country is what our debate is about.  Don't try to change the subject.  I have included a short narrative describing McCain's captivity at the end of this post.  I know that you don't care, Stephen, but others will.

6.  Your "hero", Ms. Sgrena, was held by Iraqi insurgents for less than a month.  The man that you so easily denigrate and demean was held for five and one half years.  Ms. Sgrena has never claimed that she was tortured, why would you write that she was?  She freely states that her statements in support of the insurgents were given freely, and in fact she made such statements both before and after her kidnapping.

7.  Of course, this means that I am calling a living woman a liar.  I hope that you are not a liar, and that your statements are simply mistaken.  Is that the case?

8.  I quoted the post # where the thread veered from CCTV downtown.  I explained clearly what I was responding to and gave that post # as well.  Do you think that by you just saying it was my fault that the scope and subject of the debate changed makes it true? 

9.  Are you honestly saying that predicting that the Democrats would win in the fall elections proves some kind of accuracy on your part?  EVERYBODY knew that.  That call was clear in early summer.  I never claimed the Republicans would win the presidency last fall. 

10.  Manly?  You're questioning my manhood?  Your kidding, right?  I will attribute this to the fact that you mistakenly believed that Ms. Sgrena was deceased and you thought that it was somehow gentlemanly to stand up for her, even if your facts of the entire incident were wrong.  I'll leave this little jewel at that.

11.  And finally, credibility.  Yes Stephen, I have tried to counsel you against making brash statements based on what you hear or read on the internet.  You demean those that have made sacrifices that you have not.  You demean those that have the training, education and experience that you do not.  You insult and demean successful businessmen who do not toe your line in the development of our city.  For years on several local forums we have all seen you make breathless claims of exagerration.  Many, including myself, have tried to counsel patience and open mindedness, only to be insulted or demeaned ourselves.  Gettin' kind of old, son.  I don't mean any of this in an insulting or mean way, I am only trying to help you see how you are hurting your own reputation while insulting men and women who have earned our respect and gratitude.

I really don't care if downtown cameras are installed or not.  I think that it could help in minor ways.  There is no manpower to watch them, they would only help after the fact.  Big Brother will not be watching. 

I was not and am not a McCain supporter.  I was a Thompson guy and I don't know yet who I will support in the future.  But I do respect what the man went through and how he handled it.  Please read of that experience below:



John McCain's capture and subsequent imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.[33][34] McCain fractured both arms and a leg ejecting from the aircraft,[35] and nearly drowned when he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake.[33] Some North Vietnamese pulled him ashore, then others crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt and bayoneted him.[33] McCain was then transported to Hanoi's main Hoa Lo Prison, nicknamed the "Hanoi Hilton".[34]


McCain being pulled from Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi[36] on October 26, 1967Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to treat his injuries, beating and interrogating him to get information; he was given medical care only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral.[37] His status as a prisoner of war (POW) made the front pages of major newspapers.[38][39]

McCain spent six weeks in the hospital while receiving marginal care.[33] By then having lost 50 pounds (23 kg), in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white,[33] McCain was sent to a different camp on the outskirts of Hanoi[40] in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week.[41] In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.[42]

In mid-1968, John S. McCain, Jr. was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and the North Vietnamese offered McCain early release[43] because they wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes,[44] and also to show other POWs that elite prisoners were willing to be treated preferentially.[43] McCain turned down the offer; he would only accept repatriation if every man taken in before him was released as well. Such early release was prohibited by the POW's interpretation of the military Code of Conduct: To prevent the enemy from using prisoners for propaganda, officers were to agree to be released in the order in which they were captured.[33]

In August 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain.[45] He was subjected to rope bindings and repeated beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[33][45] Further injuries led to the beginning of a suicide attempt, stopped by guards.[33] After four days, McCain made an anti-American propaganda "confession".[33] He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable, but as he later wrote, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."[46][47] Many American POWs were tortured and maltreated in order to extract "confessions" and propaganda statements, with many enduring even longer and worse treatment;[48] virtually all of them eventually yielded something to their captors.[49] McCain subsequently received two to three beatings weekly because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements.[50]


Interview with McCain on April 24, 1973, after his return homeMcCain refused to meet with various anti-war groups seeking peace in Hanoi, wanting to give neither them nor the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory.[51] From late 1969 onward, treatment of McCain and many of the other POWs became more tolerable,[52] while McCain continued actively to resist the camp authorities.[53] McCain and other prisoners cheered the U.S. "Christmas Bombing" campaign of December 1972, viewing it as a forceful measure to push North Vietnam to terms.[47][54]

Altogether, McCain was a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. He was released on March 14, 1973.[55] His wartime injuries left McCain permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head.[56
-----------------------------from Wikipedia------------------------------------------------------------

[gatorback]

I think if you want privacy stay at home.  What goes on  outside a private residence has and will always be subject to public scrutiny.  Actually I'm not entirely correct.  Under the Bush administration...

[McBeefkins]

Notnow, your kung fu is great!    yes for cameras! no for dareface!

[civil42806]

Notnow,


   Give it up, you'll learn what everyone else has, its not worth the time or effort.  Its like trying to teach a pig to fly, its a waste of your time and annoys the pig

[NotNow]

I guess that you are right, civil.  I have no idea what Stephens last post really means.

[NotNow]

Wow Stephen, a real shift in focus there.

[NotNow]

Interesting debate style.  Ridicule and call names.  Exaggerate and twist.  Your posts speak for themselves.  There is no point in continuing this. 

[BridgeTroll]

what people on your side of the fence do.  Slander the victims.

Wow Stephen...You mean "the people on your side of the fence" dont??  Hmmmm.

Huh??? 

usual right wing suspects

People are sick of this constant fear nonsense.

I will agree with this one but it seems the current administration has found it as effective as the last...

[BridgeTroll]

You forgot part of the CBS report... including the other side of the story...

The Army has finished an investigation, but the report isn’t expected until the end of the week. The Pentagon declined to talk with 60 Minutes Wednesday, but the Army issued this statement on the night of the shooting: “Vehicle traveling at high speed refused to stop at a check point.” [The soldiers] “attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots…when the driver didn’t stop the soldiers shot into the engine block which stopped the vehicle.”

[gatorback]

The above argument has the density of cork.  BUT.  I'm thinking does that matter? 

[BridgeTroll]

I am well aware of Coulters work.  She is a bomb thrower... just like Huffington or Kinsley.  As for the name calling... I thought that was all going to change now...  We are both aware of the bomb throwers on our respective sides of the aisle.  They are the ones not interested in a dialogue... just in hearing themselves talk.  I would prefer to emulate neither...

[gatorback]

Most every police patrol car, all the city busses, the intersections, most all of the buildings (CSX, BoA, Modis), garages, the banks, ATM's, etc., etc., etc, they all have cameras.  Are they evil, perhaps.  But if you, a family member, a friend, a coworker, an employee, or any of their property is damages, stolen, or if they are beaten or raped, you will be the first demanding the sheriff review every camera in the area to identify the perp.  And this is what matters the most. IF you say you wouldn't you'd be a lier.  Welcome to post-911. 

[BridgeTroll]

So Gator... you are saying cameras can serve a useful purpose also?

[NotNow]

Ok Stephen, I admit that I was not aware that Sgrena had claimed to be tortured.  And I suppose that death threats would qualify.  I am certainly not ashamed of myself in any way and I consider the woman to be an enemy of my country based on her statements against it.  

President Bush's "expression of regret" is a standard diplomatic gesture and does not imply fault with the soldiers involved.

I stand by all of the other points of my argument in this matter and I again would ask you to apologize to those American men and women whom you falsely accuse.  It is you who should be ashamed, but I fear that it is impossible for me to communicate effectively enough for you to understand.  I will just agree to disagree here.  Oh, and I agree that the "Nancy" comment was wrong and I have removed it.  I still find your arguments factually inaccurate and politically motivated.  I stand by my statements about your exaggerations, ridiculing and name calling of your debate opponents.  I will continue to prove you wrong when you insult that which is important to me.  

I believe that reporting of the soldiers legitimate attempts to stop an unmarked vehicle in an active war zone using standard techniques is important.

I do however, realize that I owe an apology to all those that we hijacked this thread from.  I didn't mean to take it over whith our little tiff, but it was wrong to do it.

[BridgeTroll]

You do not seem to object to private entities monitoring the public areas around their businesses... Why is it OK for them and not a government?