Entire Antarctic Shelf splitting away from Continent.

[Charleston native]

One group is trying to make the world a better place by having us all pay more attention to what we do.

...while contemplating to use force towards businesses and individuals in order for them to make the "right" choices, which include killing children in the womb. Take offense all you want, you cannot morally defend this. As a matter of fact, I predicted that this unabated environmental activism would steer governments and policy towards population control. Now we have somebody admitting it, and I would bet money that more of these people will come out and show their true colors.

The other group "tried to make the world a better place" through ethnic cleansing and actually hid what they were doing from everyone else.

So I guess its OK to have population control as long as its vetted and out in the open?

This is hardly fringe. The thought processes, or lack thereof, that show what these greenies want is becoming more apparent. Gatorback even subtly admits it.

Disgusting.

[tufsu1]

don't bring abortion into this....it has nothing to do with it!

[Charleston native]

Really? Did you not read this portion of the article:

Jonathon Porritt, who chairs the government's Sustainable Development Commission, says curbing population growth through contraception and abortion must be at the heart of policies to fight global warming. He says political leaders and green campaigners should stop dodging the issue of environmental harm caused by an expanding population.

As far as contraceptives, is the government going to force me to wear a condom? Are we going to be fined if we get pregnant after two children? Or is the government going to mandate that my wife should have an abortion, and if she doesn't voluntarily, should environmental policy mandate that she be forced to?

All relevant questions. It has EVERYTHING to do with it.

[tufsu1]

I meant the morality of abortion

The issue of curbing population increase is extermely important to overall human survival....maybe you should take a look at the growth rate in various countries (it may surprise you) and what the population growth curve looks like!

[BridgeTroll]

You may have noticed that population increase has really not been an issue in Western/advanced cultures.  The point here really is that the GW advocates can spin virtually ANY argument into one that is saving the human race or the planet.  We can use the global warming theory to control population, feed the hungry, spread the wealth... feel free to ad your own agenda...

And you guys are worried about a security camera on a street corner???

[Charleston native]

I meant the morality of abortion

The issue of curbing population increase is extermely important to overall human survival....maybe you should take a look at the growth rate in various countries (it may surprise you) and what the population growth curve looks like!

Ah, of course. If abortion is considered moral, then we can force people to abort their children as a means of population control.

This literally is making me ill. If you can't see the moral destruction that this concept brings to our society, then I seriously question your intellect as well as anybody else's who are giving this concept their approval. All for the glory of Gaia. Seig heil, comrades. 

Indeed, BridgeTroll. This is beyond ludicrous...I wonder if killing religious people could be added in there? An article was recently published indicating that Sir David Attenborough blames the Bible for "humanity's destruction of the environment". Maybe we should ban the Bible then? Eliminate churches?

Good God Almighty, help us. And I seriously mean that.

[jaxnative]

Well, the last time I read anything on the subject most of Europe already has declining population numbers except for the immigrant populations who will be their eventual masters.  Maybe these environmental/malthusian supporters should take their programs to African, Middle Eastern, and South Asian countries and see how it works out.

[BridgeTroll]

Maybe these environmental/malthusian supporters should take their programs to African, Middle Eastern, and South Asian countries and see how it works out.

Of course they want it/us to succeed...

[tufsu1]

yes...Europe is declining...and China and India are getting under control (I think they're both are actually lower than the U.S.)....but the explosion in Mexico and Africa is scary!

[NotNow]

Stephen, I don't understand why you keep repeating the same thing over and over.  I have already reprinted one post for you which clearly states some of my problem with Kyoto.  You need to answer why you think it is preferable that the US submits to foreign inspection and is forced to participate in a transfer of wealth scheme as well as pay fines as required by third world interests.  Why are China and India not held to the same requirements in this treaty?  China is now the worlds largest producer of greenhouse gases.  What exactly is it that you and those like you are trying to accomplish when you exempt this bastion of civil rights?  I think that the political agenda is obvious, and that denying it seems just...silly.

Your habit of always trying to frame the argument and insisting on posing the only questions is quite tiresome.  I can see that you are an intelligent man, just answer the questions in plain english.  There is no need to talk circles around this. 

[Charleston native]

Stephen, I'm actually going to follow River's example here from now on. The fruitcakes and wingnuts have indeed found a stronghold in this thread and on this forum, especially now that we see the true colors of these greenies, so I'm going to cut down my posts.

[kellypope]

I read the first 4 and last 4 pages in this thread, and I'm going to assume right now that much more of what happened in those pages happened in the ones I didn't read.

That being said, why aren't you talking about what we can do? You can easily go out and buy a $10 tree at the end of the month to support Greenscape Jacksonville. You can easily replace your lightbulbs, use reusable bags of a natural fiber (cotton, bamboo, wool, hemp, etc.) when shopping, you can easily buy a pot of flowers that will enhance butterfly population. You can easily buy less products made with corn syrup, cut back on red meat, support local farming. Simple changes. As Mehdi once shared with me at Uncommon Grounds, the French have a saying: "Only assholes never change."

I live in Mandarin. Born and raised. If sea levels rise above 15 feet, my house is under water. The room I've lived in all of my life is under water. Naturally, I'm concerned. We should be paying attention to how land is used, abused, and neglected in our area, and seriously consider adding more flora--native plants especially!--to our neighborhoods. Could it hurt? No. Is it difficult? Not really.

[tufsu1]

becuase the folks who don't believe that global warming is occurring feel there is no reason to change habits....we have pointed out many times that its just environmental stewardship and "doing the right thing" but they don't seem to care.

[BridgeTroll]

The problem tufsu is the argument keeps changing.  I certainly do not disagree with anything Kelly proposed.  Most people do not.  But when I point out the "slippery slope" and "unintended consequenses" (or are they intended?) of people in the government openly support limiting the numbers of children...

COUPLES who have more than two children are being “irresponsible” by creating an unbearable burden on the environment,

and

the government must improve family planning, even if it means shifting money from curing illness to increasing contraception and abortion.

somehow I am a wingnut??  Tufsu you call this a fringe element and then go on to defend the statements... You have joined the fringe apparently...

[Charleston native]

BridgeTroll, this is another tactic that these guys are using: when you can't win by substance, you have to marginalize the opponent. Marginalize and polarize the opponent's argument to make it appear kooky, fringe, and even crazy. In addition, they attack the individual as a lunatic; since we actually see the moral implications and the other motives behind this green movement, we are now being marginalized personally.

I knew this day would come once they thought they'd won it all. They're going to become more authentic and genuine about what they truly think and believe as the next 4 years drag on.

It is foolish to continue conversing with people who virtually act like cultists. I have too much work to do with very little time. Good luck!