Fuller Warren Bridge Replacement - Major Missed Opportunity for Jacksonville

[tufsu1]

(psst ... tufsu ... JTA built the Dames Point Bridge)

Given the constraints cited by several above - how much more would a more elegant bridge have cost?  Perhaps they could have sacrificed PS #4.

sorry...I meant funded by FDOT

[jtwestside]

Honestly I think that the Acosta was a bigger miss for Downtown than the Fuller Warren. With its positioning much more could have been done with IT to define the skyline. The blue light is has helped, but it just shows how strategically positioned it is in the downtown skyline.

[stjr]

Reading today's MJ article on the need for the cruise terminal brings to the forefront another example of bridge planning lacking consideration of a full vision.

When the Dames Point bridge was built, many maritime interests were vocally against it because of its potentially restrictive clearance under the span, even then, for ships, and that its piers' location are in an area of the ship channel that can be tricky to maneuver for large ships.  These questions were dismissed in the name of getting the bridge built without further ado.

And, now, because of this bridge, we are left with few options for modern cruise ships further inland.  One day, we will be hearing about how cargo ships will be an issue. Weigh the costs of solving these problems (or not solving them, as the case may be) against what it might have cost to raise Dames Point another 10, 20, or whatever, feet at the time it was built.

Another example, IMHO, of cutting corners regarding the future with serious consequences and/or regrets when the future finally arrives (as it always does!).

[tufsu1]

I've been thinking more about the Fuller Warren....and have decided it is just fine as it is....here's why

1. The vistas from the bridge are uninterrupted
2. The view from down below is ok too with the curved structural elements and the lighting
3. The signature bridge for downtown (and the community as a whole) is the Main St Bridge

these three things also apply to the Acosta....although I wish that wasn't so expressway-like

[Ocklawaha]

Having a pedestrian/bicycle pathway or a pullover vista lane to take in one of the best views found in the city would be too much to ask as well, I suppose. Just think if one could rise from the river walks below to cross from one bank to the other at sunset! (Remember, the Golden Gate is an interstate, but it still allows for these pleasures, so it can be done!)

At night, the road lighting is, again, pedestrian interstate harshness.  The profile lights installed along the bridge's sides fail to put much lipstick on this architectural pig.

So, what are we missing?  Well, if we had a more inspirational, graceful, and thoughtful design, maybe people would have something indelible to remember Jacksonville by?  Jacksonville might have acquired a symbol reflective of its natural beauty and the thoughtful appreciation of same (see Golden Gate Bridge).  People might even think that Jacksonville has the ability to think on the level of a world class city by demonstrating in the most public of places its ability to create a great monument recognized throughout the world (see St. Louis Gateway Arch, Seattle Space Needle, Washington Monument, Eiffel Tower, etc.).

Alas, the bridge we have reflects the true nature of so much of our city - boring, blah, cold, uninspired, unimaginative, forgetful, economizing (i.e. cheap!), just a place on the map on the way to somewhere else in a hurry!  Yet, it is hard to argue how truly representative it is.  How very sad for all of us who love this place      When will we ever learn?

CANTILEVER some walks on the HART and FULLER WARREN along with some bridge-scaping.

This project included repairs to an early 1900's Army Corps of Engineers retaining wall, construction of a cantilevered walkway and three overlooks overhanging the White River, and ornamental lighting and railing.  BLN provided the engineering design for the walkway and overlooks, survey and construction observation.  The scope of this project increased several times to accommodate the City of Muncie's vision for this project.  This walkway cantilevers a maximum of 6'-6" over the White River, and features three overlooks, which overhang the White River by 16'-0".  This 1,640 foot long walkway connects two trailheads of the Muncie/Cardinal Greenway trail system.  

The cantilevered sidewalk utilizes a large concrete deadman as a counterweight to prevent overturning of the walkway.  The deadman varies in depth in relation to the width of overhang, which minimized project costs.  Additionally, after structural analysis was completed, a strip footing was utilized to ensure no additional loading would be placed on the existing retaining wall. Exposed piles were used to support the three overlook area.  Benches and flower planters were placed on the overlooks in the designated congregation areas, and are separated from the path through utilization of a concrete stamping pattern.  Ornamental lighting and traffic signals placed throughout the area sit on concrete pedestals and are lined with decorative vehicular railing.  Additionally, flag brackets and electrical outlets were attached to the ornamental lighting.  This project received an ACEC Indiana Merit Award.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

I've been thinking more about the Fuller Warren....and have decided it is just fine as it is....

tufsu, great.  I have a bridge I can sell you! 

[Ocklawaha]

The Cantileverd Sidewalk in my photos, was added to an "in place" older bridge. There is no reason we couldn't retro-fit the HART and FULLER WARREN with a cantilevered sidewalk and viewing platforms.

OCKLAWAHA

[reednavy]

Alright, did anyone hear what I said?

Federal Highway System regulations say that no such will be allowed on an interstate highway, plain and simple.

It is a safety and liability issue.

The Hart Bridge is a different story, but once again, the fact it is designated an expressway has a good bit of merit to it. Also, sidewalks and views are the last things that FDOT is concerned about for it. I can also guarantee you, even if COJ could afford it, they wouldn't risk the safety of people on the bridge.

[Ocklawaha]

Allow bicycle travel on shoulders of limited-access highway bridges where access to the ends of the bridge can be provided (or exists on ramps that do not require merges across traffic) and wide shoulders make this practical. This approach has already been used successfully on Lewis and Clark Boulevard and on the Highway 370 bridge (in Missouri). Shoulders built to Interstate Highway standards have proven reasonably safe for bicycle travel, and 18 states permit bicycle travel on Interstate highway shoulders. Sometimes, it is necessary to build access paths to the ends of a bridge, but nonetheless, this very low-cost solution to access problems is warranted even when bicycle traffic volume is low. Shoulder access would even make sense, for example, on I-270 bridge across the Mississippi, though the Old Chain of Rocks bridge is near the I-270 bridge. For bicyclists with destinations north of I-270, the travel distance would be reduced by about two miles.

Guess we COULD do it, if we could get Florida off dead center.

OCKLAWAHA

[BridgeTroll]

Alright, did anyone hear what I said?

Federal Highway System regulations say that no such will be allowed on an interstate highway, plain and simple.

It is a safety and liability issue.

Heard ya loud and clear Reed.  As you are well aware rules and regs CAN change.  With the proper argument and tenacity rules get changed all the time...

[ProjectMaximus]

CANTILEVER some walks on the HART and FULLER WARREN along with some bridge-scaping.

This project included repairs to an early 1900's Army Corps of Engineers retaining wall, construction of a cantilevered walkway and three overlooks overhanging the White River, and ornamental lighting and railing.  BLN provided the engineering design for the walkway and overlooks, survey and construction observation.  The scope of this project increased several times to accommodate the City of Muncie's vision for this project.  This walkway cantilevers a maximum of 6'-6" over the White River, and features three overlooks, which overhang the White River by 16'-0".  This 1,640 foot long walkway connects two trailheads of the Muncie/Cardinal Greenway trail system. 

The cantilevered sidewalk utilizes a large concrete deadman as a counterweight to prevent overturning of the walkway.  The deadman varies in depth in relation to the width of overhang, which minimized project costs.  Additionally, after structural analysis was completed, a strip footing was utilized to ensure no additional loading would be placed on the existing retaining wall. Exposed piles were used to support the three overlook area.  Benches and flower planters were placed on the overlooks in the designated congregation areas, and are separated from the path through utilization of a concrete stamping pattern.  Ornamental lighting and traffic signals placed throughout the area sit on concrete pedestals and are lined with decorative vehicular railing.  Additionally, flag brackets and electrical outlets were attached to the ornamental lighting.  This project received an ACEC Indiana Merit Award.

OCKLAWAHA

Hey, thats cool! I spent two summers in Muncie recently. But most of the time I was only on the BSU campus.

[Charles Hunter]

(psst ... tufsu ... JTA built the Dames Point Bridge)

Given the constraints cited by several above - how much more would a more elegant bridge have cost?  Perhaps they could have sacrificed PS #4.

sorry...I meant funded by FDOT

Uh, wrong again ... it was paid for by bonds sold by JTA, which were backed by tolls up to 1989 (just before the DP opened), and since then by the JTA half-percent sales tax (since then, combined with the BJP half-percent tax).  The JTA project went from Heckscher Drive to Merrill Road.  The DOT build 9A both north and south of the bridge.

And, if this creaky memory is working, JTA wanted to build the bridge with even less clearance over the river or between the piers - but the Coast Guard wouldn't issue a permit unless they went to 175' up, and took steps to protect the piers (it's on a curve in the channel).

[stjr]

I was atop the Modis building the other day at the River Club where many Jax visitors are taken to be impressed by the Jax views.  I cast my eyes toward the Fuller Warren and realized from another vantage point that Jax surely missed a grand opportunity to build this bridge as an architectural landmark.  It is actually a decently long span over the water with a prime impact location in the river and versus the rest of the City (i.e. a great counterpoint to the skyline) and would have been a great opportunity for a creative designer to make a major statement for both him/herself and for the Jax community.

Imagine, the river walks running under and around a world famous bridge instead of a "highway overpass".  Or, the demand for high rise condos with a view of such a bridge.

Alas, it is and always will be an uninspired ribbon of concrete.  No imagination or creativity whatsoever. Zzzzzzzzzz......

[billy]

What is supposed to happen to the Matthews?

[billy]

I miss the old River Road bridge over the canal to Lake Marco.
We called it the Thrill Bridge because, when appraoched at high speeds, you
thought your car would do a Steve Mcqueen type jump.