Another JSO crash kills.

[CrysG]

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/breaking/news-article.aspx?storyid=128536&catid=17

http://www.news4jax.com/news/18480028/detail.html


I think now maybe JSO needs to look into their chase policies. Is the chance of catching worth more then the chance they could kill someone. I guess they will keep chasing criminals until someone high up in local government family gets hurt.

[jbm32206]

This particular incident and the reasons for the chase should be reviewed, but the accident that killed the woman was a chase that was needed. That one was an armed car-jacker. This one sounds like it was just a moving violation and IMO, not worth the chase.

[CrysG]

IMO someone stealing a car isn't worth a persons death. Also I didn't see anyplace where the JSO found a weapon on the criminal only that the woman who was carjacked THOUGHT he had a weapon. So JSO went speeding through rush hour traffic on one of the cities busiest streets for a......minivan.


A car is not worth a life.

[stjr]

There are two sides to this.  I am open to both.

On the one hand we had an elderly driver who, naturally, may not have been fully aware of the realities about him and/or able to respond quickly and accurately to them.  Further, he apparently was ejected because he wasn't wearing seat belts.

On the other hand, the officer may have been pursuing a suspect for a not-so-major traffic offense not worthy of pursuit.  And, he may not have had his lights and siren on.

Police do need to pursue criminals caught in the act if we are going to keep the crime rate in check.  But, they also need to use proper discretion about the gravity of the crime vs. the risk to pursuit.

My condolences to this family as this is a tragic event, regardless of the details, and sympathies to the officer who I am sure is remorseful.  We, as citizens, are at risks whenever an unlawful act takes place (isn't that why it's deemed unlawful?).  Police have a tough line to walk in performing their jobs and having to make split second life/death decisions.  No doubt, they sometimes make the wrong choices and we need to make sure, as a tribute to those affected, that such times are held up as teaching examples for others to learn from.

I would be reluctant to draw more of a conclusion from TV news reports as "reporters" (I use that term generously today) are often careless in reporting in order to make "be the first" deadlines and to squeeze the story into the few seconds allotted...  and first details are often incomplete.  And, TV news is more about sensationalism than accuracy and reporting due diligence.  Any one relying only on TV for understanding our society is sure to have a very distorted view of our world.  It will take time to sort out the final details and lessons of incidents such as this.  It is unlikely we will get any followup from TV as to the outcome.  They will have moved on to the next "sensational" story.

[downtownparks]

What I heard with the lady over on Deerwood park was, the police were pursuing at a slow speed. One account says that when the crash occurred, the police weren't even in view. They were pursuing at a distance.

If this is the case, then JSO did nothing wrong.

However, you say "This one sounds like it was just a moving violation and IMO, not worth the chase." If a person is running, the are running because there is something else wrong. If you take away the cops ability to pursue, even if it just started because of a "moving violation" then what is to stop every yahoo who gets pulled over for speeding or a light out from just speeding up and running away?

I hate that someone died, but the fault is that of the person who ran, no matter who minor the infraction, and not of the police who followed.

[CrysG]

I think we're all missing the point. I don't think anyone is saying that chases are wrong. They are a good tool for police. What I'm saying is that there needs to be a line that police need to stop at. Chasing someone who stole a minivan into rush hour traffic on a VERY busy service street is stupid.

How many of you have daughter's or wives or sisters or female friends that shop at the town center. Are you willing to look them in the face and say to them "well honey if your killed because some kid stole a mini-van and JSO felt they must chase him down, I just want you to know, JSO did nothing wrong."

People can not be bought at a people dealership, people do not come with gap coverage. Humans are worth more than mini-vans. It's plain and simple. Those in JSO knew that they were risking innocent lives while trying to pursue the criminal's but they made the decision they didn't care. Why because they knew most of the people in Jax wouldn't care?

[NotNow]

JSO has a pursuit policy that is based on national best policies.  Minor traffic violators cannot be pursued without other justification.  In the case of forcible felonies, such as the car jacking, it is a tough call that MUST be made by the Officer on the scene.  Anytime a pursuit occurs, supervisors are monitoring.   Traffic conditions and speeds are constantly evaluated.  The danger of the suspect to the public is balanced against the danger to the public by continued pursuit.  There are many more factors than can be considered in a television piece or a newspaper article.  Part of the job of a Police Officer is being second guessed on split second decisions by reporters, citizens, and administrators.  It is part of the job.  At the end of EVERY pursuit, Officers must articulate their justification and their judgement is subject to review for adherence to state law and the agencies standards.  The supervisor is also held responsible.  It is a tough job that sometimes has results that an Officer wishes he or she could change.  What happened was horrible.  Could the car jacker have hurt or killed someone else?  Absolutley.  That doesn't make this result any more acceptable.  This pursuit and the Officer's that participated will be reviewed.  Sometimes it turns out the other way, a pursuit is terminated and the suspect goes on to hurt or kill others.  This result is just as unacceptable.  The world is just not full of happy endings.  Police do the best they can with the information that they have at the time.  Do we make mistakes?  Yes, we do.  Policemen and women are just like you.  Everyday I learn from my mistakes.  That is called experience.  While some mistakes cost some money, or property damage, or hurt feelings, Police Officers are willing to stand up to make the kinds of decisions that can result in lawsuits, injured or dead suspects, or the loss of their own lives.  They do this knowing that they will be questioned in the air conditioned,well lit calm of offices the next day. 

CrysG,  policemen and women made the decision to care long before they get involved in any chase.  No one sees the suffering of people and societal ills in a closer or more personal manner than them.  The reason that an Officer risks his or her own life in a pursuit is to protect the lives of the innocent.  I assure you that the Officer involved in this pursuit will make this a part of his or her conciousness for the rest of their lives.  ALL Officers have experiences that never leave us.  Those experiences are what our judgements are based on, and the effort to stop suffering and avoid tradgedy is always foremost in our minds.  I welcome others into my profession, and I hope that you CAN do better than those before you.  But when you lay down to sleep at night, my guess is that you would be just like the rest of us, with memories that you wish could have been different, and a drive to constantly do a little better job investigating, or have a little quicker perception.  In fact, you will find yourself asking God for those things in every prayer.  It is all we can do.

[ProjectMaximus]

I appreciate your thoughtful insight, notnow.

[jbm32206]

IMO someone stealing a car isn't worth a persons death. Also I didn't see anyplace where the JSO found a weapon on the criminal only that the woman who was carjacked THOUGHT he had a weapon. So JSO went speeding through rush hour traffic on one of the cities busiest streets for a......minivan. A car is not worth a life.

I didn't say that a stolen vehicle is worth a death....I said that an armed car-jacker is worth the chase...big difference. It was the fleeing felon that caused the accident in that situation, not JSO.

[BridgeTroll]

Well said NotNow.  It should also be said here the criminal who stole the minivan was a career criminal... just out of jail a month ago.  In addition the pursuing officers were told the suspect was thought to have brandished a weapon while carjacking.  The police must assume he is armed and willing to use his weapon... regardless whether they actually find him with one or not.