Entire Antarctic Shelf splitting away from Continent.

[gatorback]

Do you know the difference between a square and a cube?  One has an area the other has a volume.  Do you know the difference between area and volume?  Because it is the volume of ice of concern.  Your reply is pure poppycock.

[Charleston native]

On the contrary, the only post that applies to your derogation is your own. Do you have proof that the volume is less than before? Actually it would be highly improbable to measure the volume of the ice since it would involve continuous mapping underwater. We have continuous satellite information to provide us with the area of sea ice, but we do not have the same equipment on the Arctic sea floor.

[gatorback]

Google it.  I'm sure you'll find hundreds of articles saying it's thickening.  We use subs to measure thickness.

The Arctic's thin and salty seasonal sea ice that freezes and thaws in the far north every year actually spread more widely this past winter, but the team of NASA scientists keeping watch over the ice by satellite said the much thicker perennial ice that normally remains throughout the Arctic summer has grown much thinner and some is already melting and drifting southward as winter ends.

In a related development, scientists at the World Glacier Monitoring Service, based at the University of Zurich in Switzerland, reported that some 30 major glaciers around the world are shrinking fast, threatening to increase floods in some regions and to decrease precious water supplies in others.

The extent of total sea ice - both thick and thin - around the North Pole reached an all-time low last year - nearly 25 percent less than the record low set two years earlier. This winter, the area of short-lived thin seasonal ice increased due to an episode of somewhat colder-than-average sea surface temperatures, but the thicker perennial ice that stays year after year declined substantially, the NASA scientists told reporters during a press briefing on the team's latest findings.

[Charleston native]

Link to your source?

BTW, subs would have to map the entire Arctic Ocean for ice measurements, which would surprise me if they utilize military equipment and resources to accomplish such a tedious task.

Here's a question to ponder: what would be determined a "normal" volume of ice? Again, you buy into the faulty premise, and we don't...because of that, we don't even have an argument, apparently.

[gatorback]

Read on...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/19/MNA3VM2A6.DTL

And yes, we use subs for that.  But I'm sure you'll find lots of articles stating we don't use subs for that. sig.

[civil42806]

Ha ha.  Check this out, from the article above "Each year, millions of square kilo meters of sea ice melt and refreeze."  Well, let's give them that. Real scientists are concerned with volume, as in cubic kilo meters.  Notice they don't mention that the ice is so thin...Great article River.

Actually if the ice is in the water it really doesn't matter abo

Read on...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/19/MNA3VM2A6.DTL

And yes, we use subs for that.  But I'm sure you'll find lots of articles stating we don't use subs for that. sig.

DUDE, thats march 19th 2008

[RiversideGator]

Unusually cold weather now being experienced in Europe.  Snow on the Riviera?!  That is almost like snow in Miami.

12 deaths blamed on snow and cold across Europe    
Jan 7 02:52 PM US/Eastern
By COLLEEN BARRY

In Poland, the Interior Ministry said at least 10 people have frozen to death due to temperatures reaching minus 13 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 25 Celsius ).

Italian police said a Milan businessman standing on his balcony was killed when the snow brought down a canopy and part of a wall. A 47-year-old Serbian was found frozen to death in his home in the town of Zagarolo, east of Rome.

The winter weather temporarily closed Milan's two airports, halted trains in the normally sunny south of France and pressed into service ice breakers in the Dutch port of Rotterdam. But it also sent Dutch skaters storming onto canals, and earned chimpanzees in Rome's zoo hot tea and cookies for extra calories.

Milan's Malpensa and Linate airports shut down briefly, then struggled to overcome a morning of delays and cancellations when the facilities reopened in the early afternoon. The city, Italy's financial capital, had to dig out from a foot (30 centimeters) of snow, and the airport authority said flight crews and other workers had been unable to reach the airports.

Snow blanketing much of northwestern Italy delayed trains up to three hours as the Italian railway had to slow track speeds. Schools closed in many cities.

A rare snowfall in France's normally sunny Cote d'Azur sent the national railway into crisis mode, halting trains in Provence as well as the Alps. Authorities stopped all buses in the port city of Marseilles and closed surrounding highways, urging drivers to stay home. Several minor car accidents caused long traffic jams.

The operator of France's electricity grid and a unit of Electricite de France SA, called on customers in southern and western France to limit power consumption during peak evening hours amid expected record demand.

In Rome, keepers at the capital's zoo fed primates a special breakfast of warm barley porridge, croissants and cookies to make sure they had enough calories to keep up their body temperatures. At lunch, the animals sipped hot tea along with rice and yoghurt.

The chimpanzees and orangutans also have been treated to modern floorboard heating and raised beds of hay and wood chips, the zoo said in a statement.

Germany had its coldest night of the winter, with a temperature of minus 18 Fahrenheit (minus 28 Celsius) measured at one weather station in eastern Germany. At the Berlin Zoo, Knut the polar bear relished the bitter temperatures, scampering about his ice-encrusted closure as visitors watched.

In the Netherlands, authorities at Rotterdam's port sent out an icebreaking ship Wednesday morning to ensure passage for barges using a vital artery to ply the country's inland waterways. It was the first time since 1996 that the port has used an icebreaker.

But the freezing temperatures warmed the hearts of Dutch skaters, with sports stores reporting a run on skates and skaters flocking to the country's famed canals. Serious speed skaters were hoping the cold spell would continue long enough for the country to stage its 11 cities tour, a 125-mile (200 kilometer) race over frozen canals and rivers in the country's northern province of Friesland.

The race was last run in early 1997 and has only been staged 15 times since the first official event in 1909.

Despite the freeze, the group that organizes the event played down hopes of a 2009 race, saying in a statement on its Web site that two more weeks of severe, around-the-clock frost and 6 inches (15 centimeters) of ice were needed.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95IFM200&show_article=1

[RiversideGator]

Do you know the difference between a square and a cube?  One has an area the other has a volume.  Do you know the difference between area and volume?  Because it is the volume of ice of concern.  Your reply is pure poppycock.

Yes.  And do you have any current evidence that the increase in surface ice is not accompanied by an increase in the volume of the ice?

[gatorback]

LOL. Did you read the articles?

[RiversideGator]

Yes.  Did you?  It was dated March 19, 2008.  Given the large increase in surface ice in the last months and very low temperatures this season, do you have any current evidence that the increase in surface ice is not also accompanied by an increase in the volume and thickness of the ice?

[gatorback]

We started the thread in Nov. That article was in March. That pretty current in my book.  Do you have evidence that the ice is thickening remembering that we want volume not area.

[Charleston native]

Apparently, you didn't read the article, because it doesn't say anything about subs:

Meier and his colleagues, Josefino Comiso and Seelye Martin of NASA's Cryospheric Sciences Program, gather their data regularly from a satellite named IceSat that has been orbiting the poles since 2003 and measuring the declining extent of the ice as well as its thickness.

I would highly debate information obtained from a satellite (an instrument hundreds of MILES above the ocean surface) as opposed to actual measurements taken below the surface in subs. In addition, the article subtly mentions the satellite measuring thickness, as if to hide the potential that these scientists are just making up the idea that volume is lower. I notice no physical numbers such as cubic feet were mentioned. And again, how do they know what a "normal" reading for ice volume is?

BTW, as a prior veteran, I can tell you that it is highly unlikely that Navy subs are busy probing every inch of the ice depth in the Arctic. They are the military, not NOAA or the Peace Corps. If you know of a credible source that corroborates your statements, please post it. You have the burden of proof.

The article is pretty lame in sufficiently giving concrete evidence of volume decrease. I would almost bet that the scientists are merely conjuring their "observations" out of thin air to continue the myth.

[Doctor_K]

we want volume not area.

Wouldn't volume come with area?  To say that it does not implies a very thin sheet floating on the surface of the ocean.

Surely the increasing ice area is not simply two-dimensional

[Charleston native]

Actually, Doctor K, according to these geniuses, that is exactly what they are implying, which is ludicrous.

[Lunican]

I guess no one has heard the phrase, "You're on thin ice."