Deal with Mayport community over cruise terminal falls apart

[thelakelander]

After more than a month of negotiations, the Jacksonville Port Authority has failed to reach an agreement with Mayport groups that would pave the way for a cruise ship terminal to be built in the village.

Now, the City Council must decide whether it will vote on the project despite the widespread community opposition or give both sides more time in hopes that an agreement will eventually be reached.

The City Council’s Land Use and Zoning Committee is scheduled to debate the matter Tuesday and the full council is supposed to vote it up or down on Jan. 13.

full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/2009-01-05/deal_with_mayport_community_over_cruise_terminal_falls_apart

[alta]

What time does the meeting start on Jan. 13?

How much time will be allocated for public input?

What is defined as widespread community opposition?  A small group of activists in a metro area of 1.3 million???

I understand that there is opposition from the Mayport community for this dying fishing village.

It seems like there would be a compromise to preserve this as a fishing community that is supplemented by the cruise industry.

[jeh1980]

The Mayport community had opposed a lot of things. I guess they hate the traffic. With all due respect, but we need good opportunities for Jacksonville to take advantage off. If the idea for Mayport fails, and I hope it doesn't, there's always Tallyrand, or the old Shipyard downtown!

[Charles Hunter]

No, jeh, if the Mayport option falls through, we will likely be out of the cruise business (the current cruise terminal, west of the DPBridge, will soon become the Hanjin port).  One of the reasons for moving to Mayport is to get east of the JEA lines that cross the river from Blount Island to Arlington, and the Dames Point Bridge.  Both limit the size of cruise ships going west (like to Talleyrand or downtown).  According to JaxPort, the major cruise lines aren't building ships that fit any more.

Now, whether we are "in the cruise business" is a good thing or not is open for discussion.  As is what JaxPort is proposing for Mayport Village is good or not. 

If the linked report is correct, I do not know why JaxPort would reject providing shore power for the ships.  I have heard them say that not all ships have the capability.  But they are basing the move on newer (bigger) ships - so it seems reasonable that newer ships would be equipped to "plug in" to the dock for electricity.

[thelakelander]

According to JaxPort, the major cruise lines aren't building ships that fit any more.

I wonder if there is a future in going after cruise ship lines that specialize in catering to niche markets with smaller ships?  If it is, the Dames Point would no longer be an issue.

[tufsu1]

Jacksonville already serves as a port of call for many smaller niche cruise ships....almost monthly, there is one docked on the river down by the Hyatt and The Landing.

The fact is that as cruise ships get bigger, Tampa's port is also a problem in that only some ships can fit under the Sunshine Skyway....with the relocation of JaxPort's cruise terminal, perhaps we could get some of their market.

Of course, right now there is only enough room at Mayport for one terminal....Tamps has three separate terminals and can have 3 ships in port at any one time (happens often on Saturdays from Jan - March).

[Joe]

I'm still very confused as to why the city needs to reach agreement with any Mayport groups. There's no Em Domain involved is there? From what I understand, this is a simple re-zoning to allow a more intense use on land the city already owns (or will purchase in a willing transaction).

A re-zoning should be valid as long as there isn't a negative impact.
- It won't have a negative impact on property values. It will clearly increase them.
- It won't have an unacceptable traffic impact. There's absolutely no way the cruise terminal could create more traffic than even a one-lane road is designed to handle.
- Being "out of character" is irrelevant since the neighborhood is not an historic district. And even then, being out of character would only restrict the form or design of the property, not whether it could exist at all.

So what's the problem here? I'm assuming the city can just go ahead and do it without fear of lawsuit.

[Jason]

The only statement I would contest Joe is there would be no more traffic.  There would in fact be an increase of traffic at the time leading up to departure as well as the exodus of cars after the ships arrives home.  About a stadium full of people leaving Mayport all at one time should congest things a bit.  Although, if handled properly, there could be a great benefit to the local buisnesses feeding off of the additional people.

Other than that, Mayport should be fully embracing this terminal, IMO.

[Joe]

Right, there would be more traffic by default. But traffic congestion is not a legally valid reason for denying a project. You can only deny a project if the extra traffic would put the road over capacity. At least this is how I understand it.

What I'm saying is that it's almost impossible for the cruise terminal to do that. I'm a little rusty on my traffic capacity numbers, but even the smallest of roads can handle thousands of cars per day. Right now they have almost none.

[Jason]

I agree.  The existing roadway would likely handle the peak traffic with only a few upgrades (turn lanes and the likes).

[Charles Hunter]

It depends on if the city measures traffic capacity over a 24 hour day, or at the peak demand time.  Spread over 24 hours, the traffic from a cruise ship would be no problem.  In the hour or so after the cruise ship docks, it could be a very different story. 

After some Googling about the boat that comes here
The Carnival Fascination carries slightly over 2000 passengers.  If they each have a car, it would cause problems on Mayport Road, at least until it gets to Wonderwood.
As bigger ships come here (the reason for moving to Mayport), the problem will get worse.  And except for the turn lanes within the Village mentioned above, expansion of Mayport Road, thru the wetlands seems unlikely.  It will be a problem, but not insurmountable.

[alta]

Not many people take a cruise by themself.  Most of the time it is families who are packed in cars or minivans.  So a couple of hundred vehicles is going to be a deal breaker not to build a permanent terminal???

[Steve]

Here is my question about this, and I've yet to see an answer to this:

Jacksonville is not positioned all that well for cruises, as compared to Canaveral, Ft Lauderdale, Tampa or Miami, simply because it is an additional day on either end to any port.  My feeling is that we are better positioned for longer, more expensive cruises.  There are a lot less people that can do this.  Doesn't that mean that smaller vessels would serve this market?  If this is the case, why don't we put the thing downtown on the riverfront, since bridges would no longer be an issue.  There are certainly a few candidates for this, such as the Ford Factory, the shipyards property (since condos aren't going there anytime soon anyway), and the industrial area near the stadium to name a few.

Thoughts?

[BridgeTroll]

I think part of the problem with basing cruises at or near downtown is distance from the ocean.  It is a rather lengthy and slow trip up and down the river.  Operations like that want quick access to open ocean.

[JeffreyS]

I continue to support the Mayport residents wishes to keep it the stink hole that it is.  If that is what they want then hey maybe I'll toss another rusty old appliance on someones lawn and keep up the tradition and ambiance they work so hard to preserve.