The current sad state of skyway stations and the system itself on weekends

[civil42806]

I'm having trouble uploading a file I just created.  In any event, take a look at where Atlantic Blvd Crosses the railroad tracks.  Extend the skyway there.  This is 1/2 mile, and it presents some opportunities to bring it lower along JTA property, keeping costs under control (remember, much of the total cost of the project was spent on one time costs, like the O&M center).  This spot could also be a commuter rail stop with the system that JTA is studying.  Then run a streetcar line from that point down Atlantic blvd to the square, and you could extend it up San Marco Blvd up to the railroad tracks near Baptist.

Anyway, take a look on Google Earth or Mapquest to see what I mean.  Trust me, I'm not advocating taking the thing through the core of San Marco; I'm just using it to get over the railroad.

I'll certainly do that, thank you. Always try to keep an open min about our options.

[thelakelander]

Boy lakelander the problem here there really any demand, significant from day to day, for the burb residents, of which in disclosure I am one, really to go downtown?  I worked downtown from 95 to 98 and honestly other than jaguar games, some suns games, and some concerts, haven't been down there since.

Studies show that some areas of our community have to longest commutes in the state.  We also don't have the money to continue to expand major highways or build new ones.  So we must take the creative, cost effective approach.

The development of a mass transit system should not be dependant on downtown alone.  One of the best things I like about a regional transit system is it will connect various destinations all over town.  For example, it would enable someone to get to the airport from the Southside without the use of a car.  One could also live in Orange Park and attend school at FCCJ Kent without the getting caught in rush hour on Blanding or Roosevelt.  It also ecourages infill development, which gives the community a chance to increase its tax base without straining existing infrastructure.  Its also more affordable than continuing to invest in the expansion of arterial highways.  A system, based on downtown alone will fail, but one that considers the needs of the entire county will enhance the community's quality of life.

[Steve]

I agree to certain degreee  Steve, but I unfortunatley don't believe that the transit system leads a vibrant downtown, but vice versa.  I spent many fond years in Downtown Savannah, boozing, and Wh**ring at the bars and clubs, and rode the buses back to my apartment.  I just don't believe that mass transit no matter how successfull will lead to the revitalisation of the downtown of my childhood.

Savannah's metro is about 1/2 the size of Jacksonville, so it's kind of apples and oranges.  However, the neighborhood has mass transit (just not rail).

You would be hard pressed to find me a downtown of a metro area that has 1 million people or more that has both a vibrant downtown and no rail-based mass transit.

Now, with that said, I'm definitely not saying that a mass transit system alone will make up for the disaster that Downtown Jacksonville is, but it is an ingredient in the process

[civil42806]

Boy lakelander the problem here there really any demand, significant from day to day, for the burb residents, of which in disclosure I am one, really to go downtown?  I worked downtown from 95 to 98 and honestly other than jaguar games, some suns games, and some concerts, haven't been down there since.

The development of a mass transit system should not be dependant on downtown alone.  One of the best things I like about a regional transit system is it will connect various destinations all over town.  For example, it would enable someone to get to the airport from the Southside without the use of a car.  One could also live in Orange Park and attend school at FCCJ Kent without the getting caught in rush hour on Blanding or Roosevelt.  It also ecourages infill development, which gives the community a chance to increase its tax base without straining existing infrastructure.  Its also more affordable than continuing to invest in the expansion of arterial highways.  A system, based on downtown alone will fail, but one that considers the needs of the entire county will enhance the community's quality of life.

I agree with you fully Lakelander, the shame is that the JTA has made getting from one area to another very difficult.  There insistance that you have to change buses downtown is infuriating.  Had a friend many years ago, had a wife from overseas and couldn't drive, he was trying to get her to her job on phillips highway, but they inisited that she ride the san jose bus to past her plant on phillips and change buses downtown and ride back down pillips to the old gm plant.

[thelakelander]

Regarding San Marco and the railroad tracks, maybe this image helps. 



Once over the tracks near Kings Avenue Station, the stretch to Atlantic Blvd. could be built at ground level to minimize costs.  If a city leader with concrete connections made a civic donation (hint, hint), the costs would really decrease.

[Steve]

You're not alone in those stories - JTA sure has had their bumps in the road.

[thelakelander]

I agree with you fully Lakelander, the shame is that the JTA has made getting from one area to another very difficult.  There insistance that you have to change buses downtown is infuriating.  Had a friend many years ago, had a wife from overseas and couldn't drive, he was trying to get her to her job on phillips highway, but they inisited that she ride the san jose bus to past her plant on phillips and change buses downtown and ride back down pillips to the old gm plant.

Yes, the current system is a mess.  It needs to be revamped.

[Steve]

Thank you lake!  I tried to upload a quick image that I did, but I was denied by our FTP server

[Ocklawaha]

You might want to check out: http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/search/label/Skyway
Also here on MetroJacksonville: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/918/116/

I say "ABANDON the Skyway!"

Ock, I have read your posts here for quite some time and I fully support your push for some form of rail mass transit and not using the BRT system the way it is being proposed.  But I have to differ with you on the Skyway.  It was only built because we didn't want those Federal dollars going elsewhere but no one played up the Feds don't subsidize the operations so us locals take the hit every year to the tune of millions of dollars that could be far better used improving our bus services.

In reality, the FEDS DO SUBSIDIZE transt operations, all over the nation, all modes, everywhere. We certainly "Played Up" the monorail at the time it was built. It was even "suggested" by the City that I leave Jacksonville at that time, uh, for my health. I was in the path of the Skyway, there was no way to network, no internet, but the Jacksonville Journal and I took a nasty fight to city hall. We lost, they won, but we cut their legs off at the knees in what should have been an all or nothing battle. I think we so poisioned the Skyway that it quit before reaching it's potential.


Downtown, the Skyway structure has destroyed most of the streetscapes, casting its elephantine shadows on pedestrians below making such streets look more like dark alleys.  It carries a mere fraction of the passengers predicted for the EXISTING legs some 20 years ago, much less for today, by prostituting consultants for the JTA.  It is slow, costly per mile to build, and limited, compared to rail, to a relatively low capacity of passengers.  Practically speaking, who is going to leave their suburban house, fight road traffic by driving 10 to 15 miles, more or less into town, to a fringe Skyway station, park and walk to the station, board the Skyway and poke along to downtown, disembark, go down an escalator to street level, walk a few blocks to an office building, and then ride the elevator to their floor.  This scenario gets even sillier, if one drives to a suburban train station, then takes it to a Skyway station!

I have no argument about shadows in downtown, but frankly on a rainy summer day or a day with blistering heat, more then once I pick the Skyway as a sheltered walk, so do many others. I realize it must be more then that, but there is nothing wrong with the concept, the trains, or the technology involved. Even "The Monorail Society" questions WHY - WHY - WHY did Jacksonville go with that darn people-mover track, plus sidewalls, plus monorail beams, when it expanded the system AFTER giving up the People Mover. We paid for 2.5 systems. One might get the idea that some powerful force in the city was making big bucks in the concrete business...(Smile). To hit on some of your points:

Dark streets - or - shady streets, not a problem.

It carrys a fraction of the passengers projected over 28 years ago, because it was NEVER finished, not one leg of the system was ever done to plan. 

Prostituting consultants? REALLY? haven't lived with a hooker since 1978... Hee Hee.

It is not slow, in fact it has been up to 50 MPH in tests. Acceleration is superior to buses and the same as light rail. The average City transit bus speed is close to 12 MPH, the Skyway is far faster.

Driving to the edge of downtown, parking and using the Skyway is quite a plesant experience, many more people would do it IF JTA would build stations and parking facilities with easy on-off access from freeways or other transit modes. For example, one can't leave the Kings Avenue Garage and jump on the freeway, even ramps to the south side of Atlantic both entry and exits would enhance the garage and Skyway. Ditto, the Matthews/Hart Bridge/sports area, The Riverside/Blue Cross/95 area, The Union Terminal/95/Farm Market area.

Why would riding the Commuter Train up from St. Augustine, pulling into Atlantic/San Marco Station, jumping on the Skyway and off at the ATT building, be a problem? Wouldn't it be the same as riding in and catching a bus from the depot to the building area? What about those at the beaches? Catch a bus to rail, ride the train to downtown, ride the bus to a factory on Commonwealth? No difference then catching the Skyway, except the Skyway is: 1. silent, 2. faster, 3. won't stop at traffic lights

With fixed rail to the suburbs, you park or are dropped off, get on the efficient train, get off at your final station, and walk to your destination as is proven and successfully done in most every major city in the developed world.

No one, is going to ride this efficient train if they have to walk in a three piece suit or dress from LaVilla to
the new Federal Courthouse. How much better would our system be with a matrix of more skyway + streetcar + commuter rail + bus and trolley bus.

Trying to justify expanding the Skyway because we are already so invested in it is the same logic our political leadership uses too many times to avoid making the hard decisions.  There comes a point where you admit it isn't worthwhile to continue the effort and you move on.

The big bucks were spent in the support system, the yards, car barn, automation, and silly 2.5 track systems.
Not one bit of this big spending would need to be done again to extend several of the lines out a mile or two.

There are only so many dollars for mass transit.  We made a huge mistake with the Skyway.  We need to get it right the next time.  You will only have one option and it needs to be rail, not the Skyway and not BRT.   It would be shear madness to operate local buses, BRT, rail, and the Skyway all at once as even MJ has pointed out the overlaps.  Simplicity is best.  In every major city I have visited, where they have rail in some form, it works great and its all you really need other than local bus connections to the various stations.  We should improve the beauty of downtown by tearing down the Skyway (let's finally admit the "emperor is naked!").  The money we save every year in operating losses will more than make it worthwhile to abandon it and we can invest that money in something that really works.

It would be shear genius to operate local buses, BRT, rail, and the Skyway all at once as  MJ has pointed out with intersecting not overlapping lines. 




In the table below, some conventions have been followed.



· AGT â€" refers to elevated guideway systems with small-profile stock, usually with rubber-tired trains. Some but not all of these operate "driverless."



· RRT â€" refers to rail rapid transit ("heavy rail" transit), a full-scale subway or metro.



· LRT â€" refers to light rail transit. This typically operates in a variety of alignments, including streets, but is capable of operating in trains, and usually includes well-defined passenger stations or transit stops, perhaps with prepaid or other more specialized types of fare collection.



Streetcar LRT â€" refers to a more traditional streetcar operation with tracks built in roadways, usually with onboard collection of fares and without single-person operation of multiple-car trains.



Monorail â€" refers to both suspended and straddle-beam type monorail transit systems.

Comparative O&M Cost: Various Transit Guidedway Modes in Japan and the USA

City/System Transit Mode O&M per Passenger-Mile
Salt Lake City LRT $0.15
San Diego LRT $0.17
St. Louis LRT $0.21
Tokyo/Eidan RRT $0.25
Atlanta RRT $0.25
New York/NYCTA RRT $0.25
San Francisco-BART RRT $0.26
Hiroshima-suburban LRT (1999) LRT $0.27
Tokyo/Toei RRT $0.27
Portland LRT $0.29
Los Angeles LRT $0.29
Philadelphia-PATCO RRT $0.31
Tokyo Monorail $0.31
Chicago RRT $0.31
Kobe RRT $0.32
Washington DC MetroRail RRT $0.34
Yokohama RRT $0.36
Tokyo "Yurikamome" AGT $0.37
Osaka RRT $0.38
Denver LRT $0.40
Nagasaki Streetcar LRT $0.40
Tokyo/Saitama "New Shuttle" AGT $0.40
Boston RRT $0.41
Sacramento LRT $0.42
Nagoya RRT $0.43
Tokyo/Toei Streetcar LRT $0.43
Philadelphia-SEPTA RRT $0.44
New York/PATH RRT $0.46
Miami RRT $0.46
Cleveland RRT $0.46
Hiroshima "Astram Line" AGT $0.46
Osaka "New Tram" AGT $0.48
Baltimore LRT $0.49
Osaka Monorail $0.49
Fukuoka RRT $0.49
Sapporo RRT $0.50
Baltimore RRT $0.52
Tokyo/Tokyu Corp (1999) Streetcar LRT $0.52
Kitakyushu/Chikuho Elec Ry LRT $0.54
Kitakyushu Monorail Monorail $0.54
Dallas LRT $0.55
New Orleans Streetcar LRT $0.56
Boston LRT $0.56
Kyoto/Keifuku Elec Ry (1999) Streetcar LRT $0.57
Hiroshima-Urban lines (1999) Streetcar LRT $0.59
Enoshima Elec Ry LRT $0.60
Sendai RRT $0.61
Los Angeles RRT $0.62
Tokyo/Tama Monorail $0.63
Kobe "Portliner"+"Rokkoliner" AGT $0.63
Shonan Monorail $0.63
Cleveland LRT $0.64
Philadelphia/SEPTA LRT $0.64
Kagoshima Streetcar LRT $0.67
Yokohama "Kanazawa Seaside Line" AGT $0.68
Kumamoto Streetcar LRT $0.69
Takaoka Streetcar LRT $0.77
Toyohashi (0.4 mi/1999) Streetcar LRT $0.77
Toyama (1.7 mi/1999) Streetcar LRT $0.78
Okayama Streetcar LRT $0.83
Kochi Streetcar LRT $0.83
Osaka/Sakai Streetcar LRT $0.84
Pittsburgh LRT $0.84
San Francisco/Muni LRT $0.85
Hakodate Streetcar LRT $0.92
Kyoto RRT $0.92
Buffalo LRT $0.94
Chiba Monorail $0.97
New York/Staten island RRT $0.97
Seattle Monorail $1.02
San Jose LRT $1.07
Otsu/Keihan Elec Ry (1999) LRT $1.08
Sapporo Streetcar LRT $1.15
Newark+HBLRT (NJT) LRT $1.27
Gifu (1999) Streetcar LRT $1.37
Matsuyama (1999) Streetcar LRT $1.44
Komaki "Peachliner" AGT $1.73
Tokyo/Seibu Ry Yamaguchi Line AGT $2.09
Memphis Streetcar LRT $2.31
Osaka OTS Line AGT $2.45
Tokyo-Toei/Ueno Park Monorail (1999) Monorail $2.65
Seattle Waterfront Streetcar Streetcar LRT $2.88
Yukarigaoka AGT $2.91
Miami MetroMover AGT $3.42
Inuyama "Meitetsu Monkeyu Park Monorail" Monorail $4.10
Nagoya/Guideway Bus Guided Bus $5.06
Detroit People Mover AGT $6.07
Jacksonville Skyway Monorail AGT $10.71

I'll issue a challenge to the City, the Mayor or JTA, put out a RFP to make the current Skyway more attractive to riders. We'll double the income and/or ridership within two years without the extensions. Let us unleash the  power of transit savvy thinking on our Skyway.

OCKLAWAHA

[Steve]

Always a man of few words, Ock.

[Ocklawaha]

AMEN!

OCKLAWAHA

[ProjectMaximus]

Thanks for bringing the pictures and numbers, Ock.

[jaxtrader]

It is my understanding that if the city were to remove   or even cease operation of the Skyway, it would be liable to repay the Federal portion of the construction cost. It is therefore cost- effective to maintain it, even if it were down to one train a day. This should serve as a warning to the incoming administration of the pitfalls of ill-conceived public works projects.

[stjr]

It is my understanding that if the city were to remove   or even cease operation of the Skyway, it would be liable to repay the Federal portion of the construction cost. It is therefore cost- effective to maintain it, even if it were down to one train a day. This should serve as a warning to the incoming administration of the pitfalls of ill-conceived public works projects.

Well, that's what's wrong with government processes.  As a taxpayer, I don't care if it's wasted Federal, state, or local money, I am paying for it.  If the overall project is a waste, all its partners should get together to pull the plug.  Feeding the bureaucracy is a bad reason to do or  maintain anything.

[thelakelander]

Has it been proven that its an overall waste?  After all, it and the regional system that was supposed to feed riders into it was never completed.  By the same token, should the Dames Point Bridge (another money pit) be torn down if it crossed the river, but stopped short of Heckscher Drive and Merrill Road?