The current sad state of skyway stations and the system itself on weekends

[jax_otaku]

Hey I'm pretty new to the board but I have been a longtime skyway supporter and thought I would throw my two cents in on this issue. I often go downtown on weekends when I am off and like to use the skyway to go to the southbank and library.  However it seems that the stations and regularity of service are going slowly downhill. This weekend alone I have seen 3 stations where one or more of the escalators are down. I have seen lights out in the stations that have not been replaced in months. I have also seen the stairs at Central Station closed down for over four months now. Not to mention the fact that today on a saturday it appeared that although there are at least 10 trains, there were only 3 running. Just one for each route and not nearly enough to make the system quick and reliable. Anywho I know this is like beating a dead horse bringing this issue up but its just sad that one of the distinct things in our city is falling apart like this.

[Charles Hunter]

Operating costs - up
Revenues - down

= deferred maintenance and less service

and, yes, it sucks

[aj_fresh]

I was with my daughter at Central Station with no change and no change machine available. Not wanting to be a fare beater, I walked over to greyhound in an attempt to make change. No can do. I just happen to stick my finger in the coin return of the coke machine and came up with 50 cents. Thus, we walked back to Central Station where I paid a fare and had my daughter walk under the turnstile. Not exactly what I call a great fare collection system. She did love the train though. Wanted to ride it over and over. I would also, only if it went to more places. 

[brainstormer]

Email the mayor and your city council representative and let them know your concerns.  We all hope that one day they will start to listen. 

[Ocklawaha]

Hello: JAX_OTAKU and friends.

Hey I'm pretty new to the board but I have been a longtime skyway supporter and thought I would throw my two cents in on this issue. I often go downtown on weekends when I am off and like to use the skyway to go to the southbank and library.  However it seems that the stations and regularity of service are going slowly downhill. This weekend alone I have seen 3 stations where one or more of the escalators are down. I have seen lights out in the stations that have not been replaced in months. I have also seen the stairs at Central Station closed down for over four months now. Not to mention the fact that today on a saturday it appeared that although there are at least 10 trains, there were only 3 running. Just one for each route and not nearly enough to make the system quick and reliable. Anywho I know this is like beating a dead horse bringing this issue up but its just sad that one of the distinct things in our city is falling apart like this.

You might want to check out: http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/search/label/Skyway
Also here on MetroJacksonville: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/918/116/

We have been preaching and teaching the gospel of finishing something for a couple of years, so far the City if still in Terror of the Skyway, seeing it as certain political death. I disagree, in fact the Councilman or woman that finally listens to reason, and gets this thing done will reap long term rewards.

Charles said:

Operating costs - up
Revenues - down

= deferred maintenance and less service

and, yes, it sucks

Yes Charles, this was the Chicago, Rock Island and Pacific Railroad's secret to success. By 1960 the Rock Island Lines was a household word in song and legend. About 1961 THE ROCK had the chance to merge the Union Pacific into the family. Railroading (including monorails) is highly cash intensive, so the new bright bulbs over at The Rock filed the applications, and for spending money, defered all maintenance, system wide.

Little did anyone know the Interstate Commerce Commission would take nearly 10 years to make up their mind. When they finally gave approval, The Rock was experiencing derailments of freight cars sitting in the yards - NOT MOVING! The condition of the road was so bad that Union Pacific had moved it's "overhead traffic" bound for Chicago off of the Rock and onto the Chicago Northwestern. The Rock was left at the alter, there would be no marriage. In the early 1980's, the Rock became the largest railroad abandonment in the history of the United States.

Anyone see where the same concept is going to get our Skyway? ABANDONED! I promise.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

You might want to check out: http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/search/label/Skyway
Also here on MetroJacksonville: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/918/116/

We have been preaching and teaching the gospel of finishing something for a couple of years, so far the City if still in Terror of the Skyway, seeing it as certain political death. I disagree, in fact the Councilman or woman that finally listens to reason, and gets this thing done will reap long term rewards.

I say "ABANDON the Skyway!"

Ock, I have read your posts here for quite some time and I fully support your push for some form of rail mass transit and not using the BRT system the way it is being proposed.  But I have to differ with you on the Skyway.  It was only built because we didn't want those Federal dollars going elsewhere but no one played up the Feds don't subsidize the operations so us locals take the hit every year to the tune of millions of dollars that could be far better used improving our bus services.

Downtown, the Skyway structure has destroyed most of the streetscapes, casting its elephantine shadows on pedestrians below making such streets look more like dark alleys.  It carries a mere fraction of the passengers predicted for the EXISTING legs some 20 years ago, much less for today, by prostituting consultants for the JTA.  It is slow, costly per mile to build, and limited, compared to rail, to a relatively low capacity of passengers.  Practically speaking, who is going to leave their suburban house, fight road traffic by driving 10 to 15 miles, more or less into town, to a fringe Skyway station, park and walk to the station, board the Skyway and poke along to downtown, disembark, go down an escalator to street level, walk a few blocks to an office building, and then ride the elevator to their floor.  This scenario gets even sillier, if one drives to a suburban train station, then takes it to a Skyway station!

With fixed rail to the suburbs, you park or are dropped off, get on the efficient train, get off at your final station, and walk to your destination as is proven and successfully done in most every major city in the developed world.

Trying to justify expanding the Skyway because we are already so invested in it is the same logic our political leadership uses too many times to avoid making the hard decisions.  There comes a point where you admit it isn't worthwhile to continue the effort and you move on.

There are only so many dollars for mass transit.  We made a huge mistake with the Skyway.  We need to get it right the next time.  You will only have one option and it needs to be rail, not the Skyway and not BRT.   It would be shear madness to operate local buses, BRT, rail, and the Skyway all at once as even MJ has pointed out the overlaps.  Simplicity is best.  In every major city I have visited, where they have rail in some form, it works great and its all you really need other than local bus connections to the various stations.  We should improve the beauty of downtown by tearing down the Skyway (let's finally admit the "emperor is naked!").  The money we save every year in operating losses will more than make it worthwhile to abandon it and we can invest that money in something that really works.

[ProjectMaximus]

How do O & M costs for the skyway compare to light or heavy rail? I thought the monorail wasn't too bad since it's fully automated.

stjr, I disagree with your expectation that simplicity trumps a good transit mix. In public transit, I agree with what Ock has said before, that more options are better in the long run. I don't believe that the commuter trains in and around NYC, or the Metra here in Chicago would be half as popular as they are if not for the comprehensive subway/elevated train systems that service the urban cores. In your scenario, if I were to drive and park, or ride the bus, to a commuter rail station and ride into downtown Jax...why would I want to do that only to get dumped off at some centralized train station without any way to get around downtown? I'd only do so if there were also an efficient system to get me to work/lunch/whatever else I might need. "Most every major city in the developed world" that you speak of has both suburban lines and complementing urban transit systems.

If you still with to tear down the skyway, you just might be able to justify doing so, but then you'd have to replace it with streetcar, or some other alternative to get riders to their final destinations!

[stjr]

PM, I think you missed my point.  There are limited resources and Jax is not New York.  We have enough of an uphill battle getting funding, public support, and people out of their cars here to not make this that complex on Day 1.  You can always add to it later.

I have no problem with street level interconnections to rail (buses, trolleys) which are flexible, cheaper to implement, and much more user friendly than the Skyway albatross that flies overhead.  The millions lost annually operating the Skyway could pay for a lot of buses and trolleys that you advocate for!

My main point is in this era of even more limited resources than before, we need to lose money only operating one major fixed mass transit system, not two.  The Skyway will never be as popular as buses, trolleys, or fixed rail because it is a flawed concept.  The fact that most agree that it would never be built today based on its cost/benefit is the best proof that it needs to finally be buried 6 feet under.  Expanding it will just expand the losses further.  It's pure fantasy to expect that ridership from the extension will more than offset the additional investment and operational costs of same.  That's the BS we have heard to justify its original construction and expansion over the river.  Just do this and that and the riders will be coming.  Always excuses for the failures to deliver on even 10 to 15% of the projections (That's right - what would you do to someone you paid that is off by over 80% on everything they tell you  . )

If I gave you a blank sheet and $x millions of dollars for mass transit and said spend it where you get the most bang for the buck, the Skyway would likely fall to the bottom of the list.  Regardless of present decisions, I will almost guarantee you someone with foresight and vision and real leadership in this area will remove the Skyway from the landscape in less than the next 50 years (maybe when the accountants have fully depreciated it and they can say they got "their money's worth"! . )

If you want any credibility with politicians and the taxpayers, you better push aside the Skyway sideshow and focus on the rail.  Let's admit the Skyway is a fiasco and turn the corner to a brighter future with a fresh and focused new start!

[thelakelander]

There are limited resources and Jax is not New York.  We have enough of an uphill battle getting funding, public support, and people out of their cars here to not make this that complex on Day 1.  You can always add to it later.

All I'm going to say right now is we already have local money to get Phase 1, of a regional wide rail integrated plan, off the ground.  Even JTA's preliminary feasibility study shows that a streetcar system between Downtown and Five Points could be built for $65 million.  The commuter rail numbers are lower than that per mile.  To top this off, we're sitting on nearly $100 million set aside for rapid transit.  Its time we look at a map and figure out where money should be spent first on the backbone a regional wide rail based mass transit system.

The way I see it, we should move forward without waiting for FTA approval or funding.  History has shown the federal process typically results in long project delays and higher implementation costs.  Plus, if the initial line proves to be a success, it will help the city gain federal funding for expansion more so than sitting around doing nothing.  Because of this, a larger number of cities are finding creative ways to start without initial federal funding help.  Jacksonville should jump on board.

[ProjectMaximus]

Certainly we aren't new york, but MY point was that a commuter rail system from our "suburbs" into the Prime Osborn (or wherever the central station would be) needs to have an integrated urban system to complement it, or I see no reason I would ever ride the train. Of course we don't have the resources of the major cities in this country, but there must be a balance struck between cost-effectiveness and an efficient and comprehensive transit network, as shown by our very own skyway system. And the fact that we don't have the same resources as new york is all the more reason we should work with and improve what we have. We don't have the money to tear down whats already in place.

And again, with regards to the skyway, your displeasure of its aesthetic quality and the inconvenience of having to climb one story to embark are more or less legitimate dislikes, and I could be persuaded to agree to some degree. However, your claim that "The fact that most agree that it would never be built today based on its cost/benefit is the best proof that it needs to finally be buried 6 feet under" is illogical. The initial investment has been made, I don't see how saying that we shouldn't have originally made that investment translates to we should throw that investment away now. Although that would be Jax in a nutshell...waste millions on something that shouldn't be built and then tear it down.

btw, I've been keeping an open mind to your idea of tearing down the skyway. I wonder if that could possibly reap benefits that I hadn't even considered. That said, your given justifications for tearing it down haven't convinced me in the least.

[thelakelander]

The skyway's sibling in Miami must be working.  The City of Miami is asking Obama for $150 million to expand it west of downtown to connect with the proposed Florida Marlins baseball park.

The difference between the skyway and metromover is the Miami system has heavy and commuter rail lines feeding riders into it.  This is really evident at Miami Heat home games.

[tufsu1]

maybe so...but an extension to the old Orange Bowl site is ridiculous!

They should have stayed with the downtown site along the water in Bicentennial Park....its already served by a station....or, alternately, provide a link off the metrorail station at Jackson Memorial....that's much closer to the stadium site than the current downtown people mover!

[thelakelander]

It is a good distance from the current line.  I don't know how it all lays out, but maybe its a part of a plan to redevelop that entire section of the inner city, west of the Miami River?

In any event, you'll never know what the answer will be if you don't ask.  We have to give them credit for adding their dreams to the stimulus package list (this is not a "ready-to-go" project).  Considering the worst that can happen is the Feds saying no, we should add a few requests (ie. DT streetcar, 100% JTC funding, commuter rail, etc.) as well. 

[ProjectMaximus]

Hey Lake, do you know the answer...how are O&M costs of our Skyway when compared to average commuter rail?

[thelakelander]

The skyway's O&M costs are significantly higher than a typical streetcar, light rail or commuter rail system.  Nearly $4 million a year for a small 2.5 mile line.

Skyway Operations required a transfer from Bus Operations of $414,662 above and beyond the budgeted subsidy of $3,414,457 in order to breakeven for the year.

http://jaxpolitics.wordpress.com/2008/12/24/city-finances-challenged/

I'll post the O&M costs of some other systems for comparison's sake later tonight.