50 Herbert Hoovers. (Dont forget the Little Guys in Mayor's Offices Everywhere)

[stephendare]

This is something that we first discussed more than a year ago.
And Jacksonville has the worst of all possible worlds.  We also have a wingnut powerbase that would pretty much rather burn the city than engage in some non corrupt tax based infrastructure improvments.  It doesnt reflect the citizens---the passage of the Better Jacksonville Plan proved that, If we can see what the money is being used for, and the tax is fair, the voters arent knee jerk wingnuts.

We need to convene a citywide disussion on our response for the next 5 years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/opinion/29krugman.html?_r=2&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

50 Herbert Hoovers
Paul Krugman

No modern American president would repeat the fiscal mistake of 1932, in which the federal government tried to balance its budget in the face of a severe recession. The Obama administration will put deficit concerns on hold while it fights the economic crisis.

But even as Washington tries to rescue the economy, the nation will be reeling from the actions of 50 Herbert Hoovers â€" state governors who are slashing spending in a time of recession, often at the expense both of their most vulnerable constituents and of the nation’s economic future.

These state-level cutbacks range from small acts of cruelty to giant acts of panic â€" from cuts in South Carolina’s juvenile justice program, which will force young offenders out of group homes and into prison, to the decision by a committee that manages California state spending to halt all construction outlays for six months.

Now, state governors aren’t stupid (not all of them, anyway). They’re cutting back because they have to â€" because they’re caught in a fiscal trap. But let’s step back for a moment and contemplate just how crazy it is, from a national point of view, to be cutting public services and public investment right now.

Think about it: is America â€" not state governments, but the nation as a whole â€" less able to afford help to troubled teens, medical care for families, or repairs to decaying roads and bridges than it was one or two years ago? Of course not. Our capacity hasn’t been diminished; our workers haven’t lost their skills; our technological know-how is intact. Why can’t we keep doing good things?

It’s true that the economy is currently shrinking. But that’s the result of a slump in private spending. It makes no sense to add to the problem by cutting public spending, too.

In fact, the true cost of government programs, especially public investment, is much lower now than in more prosperous times. When the economy is booming, public investment competes with the private sector for scarce resources â€" for skilled construction workers, for capital. But right now many of the workers employed on infrastructure projects would otherwise be unemployed, and the money borrowed to pay for these projects would otherwise sit idle.

And shredding the social safety net at a moment when many more Americans need help isn’t just cruel. It adds to the sense of insecurity that is one important factor driving the economy down.

So why are we doing this to ourselves?

The answer, of course, is that state and local government revenues are plunging along with the economy â€" and unlike the federal government, lower-level governments can’t borrow their way through the crisis. Partly that’s because these governments, unlike the feds, are subject to balanced-budget rules. But even if they weren’t, running temporary deficits would be difficult. Investors, driven by fear, are refusing to buy anything except federal debt, and those states that can borrow at all are being forced to pay punitive interest rates.

Are governors responsible for their own predicament? To some extent. Arnold Schwarzenegger, in particular, deserves some jeers. He became governor in the first place because voters were outraged over his predecessor’s budget problems, but he did nothing to secure the state’s fiscal future â€" and he now faces a projected budget deficit bigger than the one that did in Gray Davis.

But even the best-run states are in deep trouble. Anyway, we shouldn’t punish our fellow citizens and our economy to spite a few local politicians.

What can be done? Ted Strickland, the governor of Ohio, is pushing for federal aid to the states on three fronts: help for the neediest, in the form of funding for food stamps and Medicaid; federal funding of state- and local-level infrastructure projects; and federal aid to education. That sounds right â€" and if the numbers Mr. Strickland proposes are huge, so is the crisis.

And once the crisis is behind us, we should rethink the way we pay for key public services.

As a nation, we don’t believe that our fellow citizens should go without essential health care. Why, then, does a large share of funding for Medicaid come from state governments, which are forced to cut the program precisely when it’s needed most?

An educated population is a national resource. Why, then, is basic education mainly paid for by local governments, which are forced to neglect the next generation every time the economy hits a rough patch?

And why should investments in infrastructure, which will serve the nation for decades, be at the mercy of short-run fluctuations in local budgets?

That’s for later. The priority right now is to fight off the attack of the 50 Herbert Hoovers, and make sure that the fiscal problems of the states don’t make the economic crisis even worse.

[tufsu1]

Krugman was on MSNBC last night clarifying his article.

That said, before deciding that Jax. is pushing for ridiculous things as part of the stimulus, I recommend that everyone peruse this site.

http://www.usmayors.org/

It lists out the proposals from each city along with a few summary reports.

[thelakelander]

Tufsu1, that's a great link.  I think the push for "ready to go" projects is the major reason for some of the things showing up on these lists.  I'm hoping that there will be an oversight committee to reject the majority of projects that don't align with Obama's platform.

[thelakelander]

Here is a list of major rail based mass transit requests (not including Miami-Dade County's requests):

Albuquerque - $90 million for streetcar starter line - 500 jobs
                 - $13.3 million for commuter rail platform/canopy improvements - 455 jobs

Atlanta - $121 million for two line streetcar system - 1,000 jobs

Austin - $337 million for urban commuter rail expansion - 6,275 jobs

Charlotte - $110 million for light rail extension - 1,100 jobs

Dearborn, MI - $27.4 million for commuter rail system (Detroit's) - 137 jobs

Denver - $88 million for Union Station improvements - 1,196 jobs

Detroit - $6 million for commuter rail system - 80 jobs

Duluth, MN - $24 million for downtown streetcar system - 336 jobs

Enfield, CT - $10 million for commuter rail station to New Haven

Englewood, CO - $7.2 million for light rail station - 120 jobs

Harrisburg, PA - $12 million for Amtrak corridor rail stations - 185 jobs

Jacksonville - $5 million for DT transportation center - 15 jobs

Lima, OH - $2.2 million for EIS for high speed rail line - 30 jobs

Madison, WI - $2 million for high speed rail train station - 11 jobs

Mesa - $390 million for light rail system - no jobs indicated

Miami - $150 million for metromover extension to Marlin's stadium - 3,000 jobs
        - $280 million for Miami Streetcar system - 560 jobs
        - $80 million for Brickell metromover extension - 600 jobs

Missouri City, TX - $500k for light rail study - 10 jobs

Moline, IL - $1.5 million for Centre Station improvements - 30 jobs

Norfolk - $4.9 million for light rail landscape improvements - 174 jobs

North Little Rock - $18 million for trolley barn expansion - 1 job

Orange, NJ - $2.25 million for train station improvements - 28 jobs

Philadelphia - $16 million for Broad Street Subway stations - 604 jobs

Phoenix - $130 million for light rail park-and-ride facilities - n/a jobs

Portland - $75 million for streetcar system - 600 jobs

Providence - $20 million for streetcar system - 400 jobs

Riverdale, IL - $700 million for METRA train station improvements - 17 jobs

Salt Lake City - $248 million for new light rail lines - 345 jobs
                    - $155 million for new streetcar system - 200 jobs

San Bernardino - $418 million for light rail system - 2,785 jobs

San Francisco - $305 million for rail enhancements - 350 jobs

San Jose - $$146 million for BART/High Speed Rail - 1,000 jobs

San Juan - $250 million for light rail system - 1,500 jobs

St. Louis - $987 million for MetroLink light rail extensions/upgrades - 22,614 jobs
             - $35 million for loop streetcar system - 906 jobs

St. Paul - $10 million for Central Corridor light rail - 200 jobs

Thornton, CO - $40 million for grade separation for metro rail line - 490 jobs

Trenton - $100 million for light rail extension - 600 jobs

Tucson - $75 million for a modern streetcar system - 2,600 jobs

Winston-Salem - $14 million for a streetcar system - 80 jobs

http://www.usmayors.org/mainstreeteconomicrecovery/default.asp?Area=Transit

[JeffreyS]

Wow 15 jobs just under St. Louis trying to create 23,520 jobs. Although they are trying to add BRT to what is a wonderful light rail metrolink.

[Midway ®]

North Little Rock - $18 million for trolley barn expansion - 1 job

WOW! I'm there for that job. Should pay at least 10 mil. Based on Jax standards, 60% corruption vig.

Jacksonville, you have been outdone by Little Rock.

[jaxnative]

Mr. Krugman, in the above article, certainly stays true to his ideological agenda.  Unfortunately, he seems to now have a larger cheering section in the current political culture who don't understand, don't care, or don't have any problem with his suggestions at chipping away state and local government power, that closest to the people, and shifting it to the all-powerful, all-benevolent, federal government.  In other words, you can't trust those "Hoovers"!!  Hell, you can't even trust yourselves to do the right thing.  But the Feds, especially now, you can. 
His comments just ring out with fear and compassion.  How can you leave the fate of the "children", the "sick", and the bridges and buildings collapsing all around you to all those local yokels out there who don't possess the brilliance and genius of the Washington elite.  This is even more dire in our time of "emergency".
So, if you trust your children's education to the agenda of a self-exalting elite in Washingon, the debasement of the best medical system in the world, and the political rewards system gone amuck for tons of non-productive infrastructure work, please take Mr. Krugmans views at face value.

[civil42806]

Mr. Krugman, in the above article, certainly stays true to his ideological agenda.  Unfortunately, he seems to now have a larger cheering section in the current political culture who don't understand, don't care, or don't have any problem with his suggestions at chipping away state and local government power, that closest to the people, and shifting it to the all-powerful, all-benevolent, federal government.  In other words, you can't trust those "Hoovers"!!  Hell, you can't even trust yourselves to do the right thing.  But the Feds, especially now, you can. 
His comments just ring out with fear and compassion.  How can you leave the fate of the "children", the "sick", and the bridges and buildings collapsing all around you to all those local yokels out there who don't possess the brilliance and genius of the Washington elite.  This is even more dire in our time of "emergency".
So, if you trust your children's education to the agenda of a self-exalting elite in Washingon, the debasement of the best medical system in the world, and the political rewards system gone amuck for tons of non-productive infrastructure work, please take Mr. Krugmans views at face value.

Well you know the old line about Mr Krugman, hes predicted 20 of the last 3 recessions.

[tufsu1]

Oddly enough Mr. Krugman also won the Nobel Prize for Economics this year....clearly he must be an idiot 

[tufsu1]

Note to liberals:  Government does not "create" any jobs.  It can just shuffle them around a bit, i.e. take one job away from the private sector and "create" one in the public sector.  The net job gain is therefore zero, not even counting the opportunity costs of letting the clowns who run the government decide how to allocate resources which are far more efficiently distributed by the private sector.

how can you be so wrong?

If government decides to spend money on something...like infrastructure....then engineers, contractors, etc. get hired to complete the work....and the money they get paid goes into the economy creating jobs in the retail, housing, healthcare, etc. sectors.

the big difference between government spending vs. consumer spending is that it practically guarantees that the $ spent has some spinoff in the U.S.....and as long as income taxes aren't reduced, it also guarantees some return on the $ spent.

[tufsu1]

as a follow up to my previous post...

Second, this approach maintains jobs at a time in which jobs are being lost at a near-record pace. As CEO of an engineering company that has managed transportation projects throughout Florida for nearly 40 years, I know from first-hand experience that the road and bridge improvement projects on the books will create high-quality employment opportunities for engineers, planners, construction professionals, suppliers and more.

Finally, this spending will likely have a secondary impact on business spending and job creation. Companies employed to complete the work will need to spend a significant amount of the revenue they earn on employee salaries, employment costs for third-party vendors, support services such as legal and accounting, materials and supplies, etc. According to an FDOT study, every dollar invested in its five-year work program would generate approximately $5.60 in benefits. Now that's stimulating.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jan/02/na-florida-needs-stimulus-package/news-opinion-commentary/

[tufsu1]

and one more...

As evidence of the economic impact of such work, they cite President Ronald Reagan’s $12 billion investment in federal highways during the 1982 recession that created 700,000 jobs by 1985.

Comments River?

[civil42806]

Oddly enough Mr. Krugman also won the Nobel Prize for Economics this year....clearly he must be an idiot 

Are we still pretending that a Nobel Prize confers legitimacy on its recipient?

No one is pretending, monsieur le puddinhead.  A Nobel Prize obviously confers legitimacy on its recipient.

Sorry but I don't worship at the altar of the Nobel prize.  Krugman is a very sharp guy, but nothing he has done recently other than BDS op-eds in the NYT warranted a Nobel.  I believe that was just another Nobel BDS (bush derangement syndrome) to go along with Carters, Harold Pintars and Al Gores.  (who knew you could win a nobel for a Powerpoint presentation)

[Lunican]

Has River admitted yet that he was completely wrong in his economic predictions? Until that happens, anything he says is of no value.

[BridgeTroll]

Interestingly... after all the discussion regarding Hong Kong, this little tidbit popped up...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090113/ap_on_bi_ge/as_world_economic_freedom_1

Hong Kong named world's freest economy

Tue Jan 13, 4:03 am ET
HONG KONG â€" Hong Kong has been named the world's freest economy for the 15th year in a row, according to an annual report released Tuesday by the conservative Heritage Foundation and the Wall Street Journal that warns against government intervention amid the global economic crisis.

The Chinese territory, known for its low taxes and looser regulations, was followed by Singapore, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand, according to this year's Index of Economic Freedom.

European countries again accounted for half of the top 20 economies considered free or mostly free, with Switzerland at No. 9 and the U.K. at No. 10.

However, the U.S. slid one notch to sixth place, dinged for increased government spending and tax revenue as a percentage of gross domestic product, one of the survey's authors said.

Ranking at the bottom was North Korea, followed by next-to-last Zimbabwe, Cuba, Myanmar and Eritrea. The southern African country, whose economy is in meltdown after years of state-endorsed violence and business controls, posted the biggest drop in this year's report.

The survey, which gauges 179 countries on 10 economic factors like trade barriers, property rights, taxes and market regulations, covers the year ending in June 2008, before the global meltdown led governments around the world to bailout financial institutions.

While free-market policies have been widely criticized for precipitating the current global financial and economic crisis, the report's authors defended free capitalist systems and argued against massive government as a threat to growth.

"Yes, there may be temporary ups and down, but in the long run more economic freedom leads to more wealth for more people than any other system," Edwin Feulner, president of Heritage Foundation, a Washington-based think tank, told reporters in Hong Kong.

"There is no escaping the fact that the freer the economy the more it flourishes," he said.

While Hong Kong has long been seen as a shining example of free-market capitalism, much of its economy is controlled by a small group of tycoons and cartels.

Government regulators, meanwhile, have been criticized in recent months for not doing more to protect local investors who bought Lehman Brothers-backed products that are likely worthless in the aftermath of the Wall Street firm's collapse.