New fight over Atlantic-Kernan overpass

[thelakelander]

PROPOSAL: Scrap overpass plan, sub at-grade changes CLASH: Those living near site vs. Beaches residents

By BETH KORMANIK, The Times-Union

For the past seven years, the plan to ease the traffic flow at Atlantic and Kernan boulevards called for building an overpass.  The plan was never universally popular, and it faces another challenge Tuesday, when the Jacksonville City Council is scheduled to vote on a plan to replace the overpass by making at-grade improvements to the intersection.

The fight pits people who live and work near the proposed overpass and dread the potential noise and visual blight against Beaches residents who think an overpass is the fastest possible route to downtown.

Councilman Bill Bishop is sponsoring the move to scrap the intersection in favor a traffic pattern called a "Michigan Left," which forces motorists who want to make a left to go through the intersection and make a U-turn in the median.

Even though Bishop has allies such as developer Toney Sleiman, who owns land on three corners of the intersection, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority and Mayor John Peyton oppose the plan. So does the Atlantic Beach City Commission.

"It's not a question of whether the Michigan U-turn will work," JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock told council members last week. "It's just not the best solution. I want to do it right the first time."

So far, the council agrees. The bill failed three committee votes last week, but five council members supported it and Councilman Jay Jabour said he voted against it simply to move it out of committee. He said he had not yet made up his mind.

Overpasses have been a moving target since Duval County residents passed the Better Jacksonville Plan in 2000.

The plan called for building 12 overpasses, but four since have been taken off the drawing board. They are: Atlantic Boulevard at University Boulevard, Beach Boulevard at University, Southside Boulevard at Baymeadows Road, and Atlantic at Hodges Boulevard. The locations of two others were changed.

Former Councilwoman Lynette Self introduced a bill this year to scrap the Atlantic and Kernan overpass but withdrew the bill before a vote was taken. Bishop took her seat this summer.

Florence Holcomb, who lives in the Hawkins Cove subdivision a block away from the intersection, asked the council to kill this overpass, too. She said the area already is noisy from a new Kohl's department store and fears what an overpass could bring.

"Honey, you come in my backyard and try to sleep in my bedroom," she said. "We have trouble sleeping with the noise now."

David Stroud, an engineer with Reynolds, Smith and Hills, said the overpass would have a top height of 35 feet and it would be 2,100 feet from the nearest Hawkins Cove home.

Sleiman still believes an overpass would hurt nearby businesses and homes and waste money. The JTA estimates the cost at up to $45 million, and Bishop's bill says the city could save at least $10 million.

"I wish I had a checkbook like they've got, because I'd have fun," Sleiman said in an interview.

But Councilman Art Graham, who represents the Beaches, pointed out that businesses near an overpass at Baymeadows and Florida 9A have thrived.

And when an overpass opponent asked about Graham's experience using Michigan Lefts, he had a blunt reply: "It sucks."

beth.kormanik@jacksonville.com (904) 359-4619

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/091007/met_198366386.shtml

[thelakelander]

Sounds like a lot of opinions from both sides.  Has anyone from the JTA, city, for or against the "Michigan Left" called Michigan's Department of Transportation for actual statistics? 

Are there any intersections in that state that are busier than Atlantic/Kernan that have a Michigan Left, as opposed to an overpass?  Does traffic back up enough at them that the state is considering replacing them with an overpass?  If so, what are they?

Considering the difference in the amount of money for both, it seems we need more facts, statistics and not opinions.

[Ocklawaha]

JTA has looked at the idea. My understanding of their study is that Michigan U would provide a quick fix, but with the rampant growth of Jacksonville, 5-10 years down the road, it would be woefully under what we need. There is justifiable concern that as traffic grows in these corridors, the traffic trailing a U turn lane or light, might quickly reach the point where it streams back into the flow of the crossing itself. This would negate any positive effect from the Michigan U. Thus their official support is rightly with the interchange at Atlantic AND Beach.

BTW The Beach Cities, support the interchanges too.

Ocklawaha

[thelakelander]

JTA also said they looked at commuter rail before BRT and now we find out they never considered the S-Line ROW.  They also have pushed the idea bus lanes down Adams and have continued to believe that this would enhance the pedestrian atmosphere along Adams, although they haven't been able to name one successful example of what they are proposing.  They also said the skyway would  attract 10,000 riders a day between the convention center and central station......18 years ago.  They also think the $750 million for buses is cheaper than any rail system out there.

Basically, over the years they've proven to be wrong on a number of issues.  Like their BRT construction estimate of $300 million, I'd like to see their study.  If done, it should have traffic counts at Michigan's busiest Lefts and data proving that these intersections don't work.  If they voice this information in a factual type of argument, as opposed to an opinion based one (that's at least how it sounds in the paper), then the argument for an overpass sounds stronger.

Nevertheless, if there's one well proven thing, its that you can't pave your way out of traffic congestion.  US 19 in Pinellas County is what Atlantic will resemble in the future as congestion continues to increase.  An overpass today to relieve one intersection only to see another needed at the next light a few years later.  Soon you'll be looking at spending billions to convert the clogged artery into an expressway with frontage roads.


US 19, travel flows over one overpass only to come to a screeching halt at the first light down the street.
US 19 expansion video: http://www.myus19.com/




long range it will get to this if no other transportation alternatives are offered.

check out this PDF to see how you will end up dealing with congestion once overpasses and limited access sections end at stoplights: http://www.myus19.com/html/Pinellas/US19_Display%20small.pdf

Coming from a different angle, one that we tend to overlook locally is the effect of these overpasses on the immediate areas and the fact that we are in a budget crunch.  Personally, I wouldn't mind having a house on the river with a yacht in the backyard.  Yet, when I check with my budget, I have to settle for non-waterfront condo.  Is an overpass better for moving traffic through an intersection...sure, for Atlantic Blvd (Kernan will still back up).  Is it better solution worth spending $10 to $20 million more when we already aren't flush with cash?  I think that's the real question we should be asking ourselves.

As for the beach resident's opinions.....they are apart of the problem.  If they don't like traffic on Atlantic, take the Wonderwood or JTB.  Or maybe they should prohibit additional building in their city limits since Jax's roads can't handle the future growth?  I think the opinion of the residents and property owners adjacent to this overpass should carry more weight.  This discussion shows why more focus should be placed on improving mass transit.  No matter how ard we try, more asphalt will only end up bringing more congestion.

[thelakelander]

There is justifiable concern that as traffic grows in these corridors, the traffic trailing a U turn lane or light, might quickly reach the point where it streams back into the flow of the crossing itself.

Duel turn lanes at the left lights should eliminate that option.  Depending on the distance, if they back up to the point where they obstruct through traffic, then they'll do the same with an overpass (aka. I-295 off ramps at Blanding).

[big ben]

i think the bigger problem is the over-use of traffic lights on atlantic and kernan just happens to be the worst.  when traffic leaves each intersection, it runs into traffic backed up from the next light.  it seems like if you put in a couple of these u-turn intersections in key places and take out stop lights for retail and the roads that look like they access only subdivisions, it would be a better improvement and also cheaper.  i've driven in areas that work this way and it works much better, even though it's confusing the first time.  a u-turn intersection in just one spot probably won't do much. 

in case you're wondering, i think it'd be better to call it something besides a michigan u-turn.  there's nothing wrong with michigan, but i could easily see this being disregarded in comments about how michigan is nothing like florida.

[thelakelander]

Yeah, I think this Michigan Left bill goes down in flames.  Like always, this is an alternative that should have been considered and debated a few years back before all the plans have been drawn.  I still find it hard to believe that the Atlantic/Kernan intersection is busier than every intersection with a working U in metropolitan Detroit.  Aerials on Google Earth should hundreds of them, many involving eight and six lane highways appearing to work just fine.  I doubt, this alternative was every considered seriously since the plans for the overpass were already drawn. 

Nevertheless, it is a solution that should be studied at other problem intersections in our community.  We need to start attempting to save money somewhere and implementing at grade transit solutions that limit the need of concrete, steel and expensive ROW purchases is a great place to start.

[thelakelander]

Here's a few images of major highway intersections in metropolitan Detroit with Michigan Lefts.

Eight Mile Road and Livonois


Eight Mile at Mound (two eight lane highways at grade)


Eight Mile at Mound (close up of a "U"- this left turn lane allows for a lot of stacking during rush hour)


10 Mile at Mound


16 Mile at Mound


close up of 16 Mile U at Mound (it appears to easier for a pedestrian to cross the street than at Beach & Southside)


Van Dyke at Mound (if a lot of lefts are being made, they install duel turn lanes at the "U".

[big ben]

i like the frequent u's, instead of a bunch of stoplights and such.  no more left turns.  left turns are the devil.  left turns are part of the axis of evil.

[big ben]

and so is over-development and only three major east/west roads to travel on.  i was thinking traffic on atlantic/beach/butler would get a lot better when the fly-overs at jtb/9a and the new bridge on beach was completed, so the traffic could spread to beach and a little to butler.  then i saw the sign for the new overpass intersection at beach and.....something, and they started tearing up more of butler to add more lanes between the ditch and....kernan, i think.  i think it's going to be horrible for a couple of years, then be not too bad for a while, then horrible again once all the undeveloped land gets developed. 

[thelakelander]

You can't pave your way out of traffic congestion.  Houston and Atlanta have been trying to do it for years.

[thelakelander]

UPDATE: The overpass will be built as planned.  It passed by a few votes.

[Ocklawaha]

I for one, support the over-pass at Beach and Kernan, as far as Atlantic and Kernan, too early to tell from my perch out on Hodges. Paris Texas uses a system of Avenues as a sort of JTB/Beltway combination. It also has traffic signals at the lesser interchanges, but full blown freeway types at the busy arterials. It works smooth as silk. Paris is home to Campbell Soups and a number of other large companies, population appears to be about that of Ocala. Many busy highways criss-cross there and thanks to the pseudo-freeways, it really moves quite well.

Ennis is right to say you cannot pave your way out of congestion. The best you can do is try and make the flow as smooth as possible. All highway construction is married to the peter principal, no matter how much you build, the demand will always grow to exceed supply. The actual formula is, you must build 4 lanes of roadway, to gain the extra capacity of ONE LANE. Again, this is due to natural infill that follows the roadways.

As I look at Atlantic and Beach, it is hard to imagine too much more infill effecting them, JTB is a different story. Time will tell if this is a good move or not, meanwhile, for us Inter-Coastal folks, hang on to your hat!

Wouldn't you just love to see a Transit Authority lay a nice LRT line right down the middle of JTB, and up 3rd at the Beaches?  

Ocklawaha

[big ben]

mostly i meant that i don't feel like living at the beach and commuting to dunn & i-95 if they're going to be building overpasses on two of the three most arterial routes while adding lanes to the 3rd.  and since i currently don't own anything, i'm moving to riverside on saturday.  i'm assuming the overpasses helped a lot at atlantic and whatever's intersection just as you come across the ditch into the beaches.

Wouldn't you just love to see a Transit Authority lay a nice LRT line right down the middle of JTB, and up 3rd at the Beaches?

i would love that and i have a feeling a lot of people would use that.  i think business owners at the beach would also, assuming it would stop somewhere near beach & 3rd.  if 1st street wasn't so tight, i'd say it'd be a good tourist draw so you could watch the beach while riding the train, but there's no room and buying ROW would be outrageous.  on the other hand, putting rail down the middle of 3rd street and still allowing it to be used as a turn lane (or not), would be much easier.

[thelakelander]

Beach and Kernan is a different project thats already under construction.  Atlantic and Kernan was the spot the debate centered around.  I think alternatives such as the Michigan U would be a wise way to spend public tax money on road improvements since we are broke.  However, in this case, like Riverside Avenue, the debate should have been waged years ago before all the plans were drawn up.  You're not going to get that far when construction is already scheduled to start and contracts have been signed. 

Nevertheless, at some point you have to give up on transforming local roads into highways and destroying neighborhoods and businesses in the process so people can get to their final destination five minutes faster.  Maybe they should be looking at limiting growth on roads that can't support it and attempt to develop parallel routes in a grid format, as opposed to widening the single artery.