Commuter Rail's Return?

[jaxlongtimer]

Here's a thought... If UF finally gets up to 20,000+ on their Jax campus, what about a starter line from Jax to Gainesville?  Is that feasible?  It might make up for the lack of a straight line interstate connection.  UF, Shands, the sports events, etc. might create a good bit of traffic and Jax airport, beaches and metro area might appeal to Alachua area residents for vacations, day trips/getaways and long distance connections.

That wouldn't be a starter line. The S-Line is CSX's main freight corridor through the state since the A-Line was partly sold to accommodate SunRail. Even if you could add enough capacity there to also accommodate passenger rail without impacting freight service (an expensive prospect already), you'd then need to restore, but really greenfield construct, thirteen miles of rail line from Waldo along SR-24 (including right past a runway, which might no longer be considered acceptable by FAA clearance rules) to actually reach University Avenue in Gainesville, at which point you're still a mile and a half across town from the university itself. That's not to say it shouldn't happen, just that it'd be a very expensive project to do.

Points noted, Marcus, and thanks for the reply.  Compared to Brightline's investment, it would seem the improvements required would not be that significant for the possible advantages gained.  Having a fast commute to UF/Gainesville, to me, would do wonders for the economy and vibrancy of Jacksonville (and Gainesville).  Having the State's premier university tied closer to Jax than any other City should be a great driver on top of UF's planned community in Downtown Jax.  It could even expand/accelerate UF's plans for Jax.  And, don't underestimate adding Shands to our already deep medical community.  Not many cities in the world could boast of easy access to so many premier medical institutions.

[thelakelander]

I certainly agree, it just strikes me as odd that we are then still paying them millions of our tax dollars to continue doing that while also separately doing this other effort. Are we going to complete this $1.5 million LaVilla Transit Innovation and Equity Project and then also spend $3.4 million on... something else? Is there a reason that the City, with its commitment to building its own capacity for this project cannot say that it would like to instead spend its funding raised through its taxes on something that furthers that built capacity? That seems like a pertinent question for having all the stakeholders together.

I can't speak for the foolishness with questionable spending locally in the past. Hopefully, this project helps break down the silos between local agencies that have resulted in millions being spent on useless counterproductive studies that are never implemented.

Now this is good to hear. It's unfortunate then that we spent that effort going in the wrong direction and now have to redo that work, so I hope then that the point of building the capacity is that capacity being able to do these things correctly so that we're not having to revisit them just a few years later.

Its fortunate that the community finally stood up. If what was done this round, had been done in the 1980s and 1990s, most of LaVilla and Brooklyn would still be there. I'm optimistic about things moving forward when it comes to the neighborhood.

Speaking of South Florida given this news, do we know yet then that Amtrak would actually agree to occupy a completed station, given that it would likely add operational complexity for them (trains continuing down the A-Line will have to back into the station like in Tampa since that area connects to the FEC)? Amtrak notably chose to abandon plans to use the station built at Miami's airport for similar operational reasons, while citing they would be open to running state-supported routes there.

Amtrak was in the room. This study is supposed to be the start to figuring these things out. The focus on actual real rail operational issues and logistics is something the local play play studies I said were a waste, never attempted to address.

I can easily believe that the parties involved did not have a plan for rail. I have no problem believing that, or that this grant could potentially change that. What worries me is the opaqueness in whether this grant actually represents the city turning over a new leaf on completing such a plan.

As far as I can tell from out here right now, the silos still seem to exist, this one merely joining them. This grant is already a third of the way through its lifespan, and it's not immediately clear what that means. I see from the council legislation that there is supposed to be a full-time Program Manager, part-time Planner/Engineer, and an engaged consultant on this project. Have those people been hired? What are they doing, in terms of "working on plans for the buildings and other nearby property"? Are all the deliverables mentioned in the Work Plan underway? Will they be complete in the next six months if this is to remain on-schedule? And then is this all still a totally separate effort from what JTA and FDOT are seemingly also doing involving the prospect of rail in Jacksonville?

I don't know what the status is on the administration side of things at COJ but I can say the biggest difference here is that the mayor actually cares. Just as important, the feds who we want money from said that this is the route to go with them, given we had no real plan. That meeting I mentioned was the first time many of these players had actually been in the same room and that was only because the mayor's office put it together. Previous administrations cared less.

This all remains very confusing and unfortunate when places like Cocoa and Stuart, which are not the nation's tenth largest cities and currently have no passenger rail stations at all, are somehow both perfectly capable of finding enough capacity to throw their hats into the ring for the five billion dollar pot of passenger rail money available until next week. The IIJA has just about run its course after five years and all we seem to have to show for it are this grant and whatever its output is, the U2C Neighborhood Extensions planning grant, the second First Coast Flyer Green Line TOD planning grant, and whatever road projects it might have funded. There was time to make four JTA Board appointments but seemingly no time to make sure those people would secure the agency's cooperation with the city on these matters, which is why we're even having to separately build capacity in the first place. That all concerns me about the status of this project and what that will actually mean for building a train station Downtown.

Both Cocoa and Stuart had done some legwork associated with Brightline. They are ahead of us. We've done nothing but sell the public wolf tickets over the last two decades, so Jax isn't really in position.

But the best thing here is that we don't need JTA to lead to get intercity rail back downtown. So some progress can be made while the battle of local politics around that animal works itself out.

[thelakelander]

Here's a thought... If UF finally gets up to 20,000+ on their Jax campus, what about a starter line from Jax to Gainesville?  Is that feasible?  It might make up for the lack of a straight line interstate connection.  UF, Shands, the sports events, etc. might create a good bit of traffic and Jax airport, beaches and metro area might appeal to Alachua area residents for vacations, day trips/getaways and long distance connections.

That wouldn't be a starter line. The S-Line is CSX's main freight corridor through the state since the A-Line was partly sold to accommodate SunRail. Even if you could add enough capacity there to also accommodate passenger rail without impacting freight service (an expensive prospect already), you'd then need to restore, but really greenfield construct, thirteen miles of rail line from Waldo along SR-24 (including right past a runway, which might no longer be considered acceptable by FAA clearance rules) to actually reach University Avenue in Gainesville, at which point you're still a mile and a half across town from the university itself. That's not to say it shouldn't happen, just that it'd be a very expensive project to do.

Points noted, Marcus, and thanks for the reply.  Compared to Brightline's investment, it would seem the improvements required would not be that significant for the possible advantages gained.  Having a fast commute to UF/Gainesville, to me, would do wonders for the economy and vibrancy of Jacksonville (and Gainesville).  Having the State's premier university tied closer to Jax than any other City should be a great driver on top of UF's planned community in Downtown Jax.  It could even expand/accelerate UF's plans for Jax.  And, don't underestimate adding Shands to our already deep medical community.  Not many cities in the world could boast of easy access to so many premier medical institutions.

Brightline's investments were much easier to make between Orlando and Miami to connect 10 million people living in those MSAs and serve millions of tourist moving between those regions. Even with all of that, they are still taking a big financial risk. Jax is a backwater in comparison and Gainesville is rural compared to Jax. Spending billions on a commuter rail line between Jax and Gainesville would be political suicide. This is a connection where a bus, similar to the Denver to Boulder express bus route from Union Station, would be the more cost effective solution.

[marcuscnelson]

^ An hourly or even bi-hourly direct bus from the center of campus to the JRTC would be pretty good. I remember taking Greyhound while at UF and having a four hour layover in Lake City. Wouldn't recommend it.

I certainly agree, it just strikes me as odd that we are then still paying them millions of our tax dollars to continue doing that while also separately doing this other effort. Are we going to complete this $1.5 million LaVilla Transit Innovation and Equity Project and then also spend $3.4 million on... something else? Is there a reason that the City, with its commitment to building its own capacity for this project cannot say that it would like to instead spend its funding raised through its taxes on something that furthers that built capacity? That seems like a pertinent question for having all the stakeholders together.

I can't speak for the foolishness with questionable spending locally in the past. Hopefully, this project helps break down the silos between local agencies that have resulted in millions being spent on useless counterproductive studies that are never implemented.

I certainly hope so as well. But there are things that actually have to happen to break down those silos and after a year of with unclear progress on that I'm concerned.

I can easily believe that the parties involved did not have a plan for rail. I have no problem believing that, or that this grant could potentially change that. What worries me is the opaqueness in whether this grant actually represents the city turning over a new leaf on completing such a plan.

As far as I can tell from out here right now, the silos still seem to exist, this one merely joining them. This grant is already a third of the way through its lifespan, and it's not immediately clear what that means. I see from the council legislation that there is supposed to be a full-time Program Manager, part-time Planner/Engineer, and an engaged consultant on this project. Have those people been hired? What are they doing, in terms of "working on plans for the buildings and other nearby property"? Are all the deliverables mentioned in the Work Plan underway? Will they be complete in the next six months if this is to remain on-schedule? And then is this all still a totally separate effort from what JTA and FDOT are seemingly also doing involving the prospect of rail in Jacksonville?

I don't know what the status is on the administration side of things at COJ but I can say the biggest difference here is that the mayor actually cares. Just as important, the feds who we want money from said that this is the route to go with them, given we had no real plan. That meeting I mentioned was the first time many of these players had actually been in the same room and that was only because the mayor's office put it together. Previous administrations cared less.

There is a difference between doing more and doing enough. I can respect the idea that this Mayor cares, but I can also look at her record on transportation over the last two and a half years and feel some concern about what happens when the rubber meets the road. Even if the feds pointed us down this road, there's nothing really keeping this from ending up as yet another study that doesn't produce a real plan but our own ability to not be Classic Jacksonville. And in this particular policy area, in some unfortunate ways, this Mayor has been Classic Jacksonville, even if getting the grant is a departure from the norm.

This all remains very confusing and unfortunate when places like Cocoa and Stuart, which are not the nation's tenth largest cities and currently have no passenger rail stations at all, are somehow both perfectly capable of finding enough capacity to throw their hats into the ring for the five billion dollar pot of passenger rail money available until next week. The IIJA has just about run its course after five years and all we seem to have to show for it are this grant and whatever its output is, the U2C Neighborhood Extensions planning grant, the second First Coast Flyer Green Line TOD planning grant, and whatever road projects it might have funded. There was time to make four JTA Board appointments but seemingly no time to make sure those people would secure the agency's cooperation with the city on these matters, which is why we're even having to separately build capacity in the first place. That all concerns me about the status of this project and what that will actually mean for building a train station Downtown.

Both Cocoa and Stuart had done some legwork associated with Brightline. They are ahead of us. We've done nothing but sell the public wolf tickets over the last two decades, so Jax isn't really in position.

But the best thing here is that we don't need JTA to lead to get intercity rail back downtown. So some progress can be made while the battle of local politics around that animal works itself out.

I admit that I'm sure I'm not embedded in what exactly the institutional puzzle of our regional transportation policy is meant to look like. So I just find it difficult from out here to believe that we are somehow going to simultaneously stand steadfast by JTA leadership as visionaries and fund their separate efforts to pretend to work on rail projects while justifying their tech company cosplay and appoint board members who won't interfere with any of those plans, while also building an entirely separate rail project management apparatus outside of that (which is already a third of the way through its limited budget and timescale) capable of delivering a publicly funded intercity rail station on any reasonable timeframe while having already largely missed the multiple federal funding opportunities and seemingly having to proceed outside the obvious remaining pipeline for projects. And this is on top of already trying to move ahead with a university campus project on that same site that will eventually require us to also figure out what we are going to do with the convention center, while we are also seemingly already flailing with whether we're even going to have a science museum.

I'm not saying we can't land that plane, but it would require a level of public administrative competence on transportation policy that I'm already unsure is present. Because if we already have to build a rail project management apparatus separate from the public transit agency for political reasons I think it bodes poorly for the ability to cohesively or coherently move regional transportation policy forward. That simply isn't breaking down a silo, it's building another one that maybe might do its job this time. And again, I know it's not your fault or Bill's fault that is the case, but I'm worried this isn't a tenable model if we are intentionally not even trying to use other city funds explicitly meant for a downtown rail terminal for political reasons because those interests are at odds with these interests.

If I were Amtrak, how much sense does it make to add service to this new off-mainline station that the city is having to try and make happen without the support of its own transit agency which is duplicating labor? They've already turned it down in a city where they did have the transit agency's support! They can be in the room the whole time, that doesn't mean they'll sign the lease at the end. That worries me. The opaqueness of the progress on this grant worries me.

[thelakelander]

If I were Amtrak, how much sense does it make to add service to this new off-mainline station that the city is having to try and make happen without the support of its own transit agency which is duplicating labor?

Totally understandable about being worried.

However, one could also make an argument that JTA has already done enough for Amtrak by investing in the JRTC across the street. That move was more important than any study they can do around commuter rail or the U2C. Plus Amtrak is already operating in town. Would a station in LaVilla that is adjacent to the JRTC, TOD and surrounded by UF' graduate campus result in more riders to their existing service? Could being across the proposed Semiconductor Institute assist Amtrak in riding the wave of momentum to secure some partnerships and prestige that would otherwise not be present for them? Will a day come where Amtrak's existing intercity lines are split along the CSX-A and FEC corridors between Jax and Miami? All these are questions that need to be answered. They are also all things that are much easier to overcome with something already in operation than us hoping that JTA will come around and accomplish anything rail-related regionally. But we can't get to answering them or positioning ourselves for implementation without starting somewhere.

[thelakelander]

JTA can't even get the basics right. Some of the things we're talking about are out of their league right now. Happy to see there are some political leaders speaking out.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2026/01/30/jacksonville-city-council-member-calls-for-withholding-jta-funding-over-paratransit-changes-makes-no-sense-to-me/

[marcuscnelson]

If I were Amtrak, how much sense does it make to add service to this new off-mainline station that the city is having to try and make happen without the support of its own transit agency which is duplicating labor?

Totally understandable about being worried.

However, one could also make an argument that JTA has already done enough for Amtrak by investing in the JRTC across the street. That move was more important than any study they can do around commuter rail or the U2C. Plus Amtrak is already operating in town. Would a station in LaVilla that is adjacent to the JRTC, TOD and surrounded by UF' graduate campus result in more riders to their existing service? Could being across the proposed Semiconductor Institute assist Amtrak in riding the wave of momentum to secure some partnerships and prestige that would otherwise not be present for them? Will a day come where Amtrak's existing intercity lines are split along the CSX-A and FEC corridors between Jax and Miami? All these are questions that need to be answered. They are also all things that are much easier to overcome with something already in operation than us hoping that JTA will come around and accomplish anything rail-related regionally. But we can't get to answering them or positioning ourselves for implementation without starting somewhere.

There's a saying in German transportation planning: Organisation vor Elektronik vor Beton. Organization before Electronics before Concrete. I'm not sure how you build a coherent plan for regional transportation without deciding first what JTA's role in that will be. Either fully taking rail out of their hands for others to handle (including the financial decision-making) or reforming the agency so that it actually does that work instead of whatever it's been doing. If it were clearer what exactly the city has spent the last year doing itself, and this Mayor not so publicly committed to backing JTA's present course of action, I would feel more confidence in whether that was going to happen. I think for Amtrak it's already a risk to consider new stations in Florida, especially any that add operational complexity like having to reverse into the station, after essentially three Governors in a row who have been hostile to passenger rail and no indication the next one won't be either. They already said no to Miami for those reasons after years at the table, and that station is directly connected to existing regional rail, metro, a major international airport, and now a new soccer stadium and surrounding development.

As I said earlier, I think a clear step in the right direction would be whatever this new capacity in the city is, moving to actually consolidate rail planning efforts into one better-funded pipeline that makes an effort to meet deadlines instead of being an additional silo among many. That was a basic step in Cocoa and Stuart, even if multiple hands touched their station projects (and even changed hands in the latter's case) the buck clearly stopped with someone. We have to actually decide if we are going to have one $5 million rail program (even if operating along multiple tracks) or a $1.5 million and $3.4 million program that do a bunch of the same things independently of each other because we don't want to hurt JTA's feelings. It's not unheard of for a city to be leading the Corridor ID process, Chattanooga is doing exactly that with the Sunbelt-Atlantic Compact. FDOT doesn't appear to have made any tangible progress in about a year and a half on the Jacksonville corridor, I don't see why the city can't pick up that ball if it is really looking to build long-term capacity for once the $1.5 million from this grant runs out (which also directly positions seeking federal funding through federal rail programs beyond the rather vague pipeline suggested in this grant's work plan).

Furthermore, it would help to clarify a lot of what we're discussing right now for there to actually be a page on the city website, or its own website, for what is even happening with this grant-funded project. Chattanooga has managed that, JTA technically has, surely we can too in order to demonstrate how this is different from every other study that's already been done on this.

[thelakelander]

There's a saying in German transportation planning: Organisation vor Elektronik vor Beton. Organization before Electronics before Concrete. I'm not sure how you build a coherent plan for regional transportation without deciding first what JTA's role in that will be. Either fully taking rail out of their hands for others to handle (including the financial decision-making) or reforming the agency so that it actually does that work instead of whatever it's been doing. If it were clearer what exactly the city has spent the last year doing itself, and this Mayor not so publicly committed to backing JTA's present course of action, I would feel more confidence in whether that was going to happen.

In this case (bringing existing intercity rail back to the downtown train station), I'd argue JTA should have a seat at the table, which they do, but its not necessary for them to lead the project.

I think for Amtrak it's already a risk to consider new stations in Florida, especially any that add operational complexity like having to reverse into the station, after essentially three Governors in a row who have been hostile to passenger rail and no indication the next one won't be either. They already said no to Miami for those reasons after years at the table, and that station is directly connected to existing regional rail, metro, a major international airport, and now a new soccer stadium and surrounding development.

We'll have to get through this $1.25 million study to really be able to answer these questions. Addressing rail operations, both freight and passenger, are an important part of the study's scope.

As I said earlier, I think a clear step in the right direction would be whatever this new capacity in the city is, moving to actually consolidate rail planning efforts into one better-funded pipeline that makes an effort to meet deadlines instead of being an additional silo among many.

This may be a step in moving in this direction.  I agree that the silos must be broken. I remember when Lakeland built its new (current) Amtrak station in downtown to face Lake Mirror Park and major city investments being made there. The city led that project (and financially invested in it), not the local transit agency so there's some precedence there with intercity rail.

That was a basic step in Cocoa and Stuart, even if multiple hands touched their station projects (and even changed hands in the latter's case) the buck clearly stopped with someone. We have to actually decide if we are going to have one $5 million rail program (even if operating along multiple tracks) or a $1.5 million and $3.4 million program that do a bunch of the same things independently of each other because we don't want to hurt JTA's feelings. It's not unheard of for a city to be leading the Corridor ID process, Chattanooga is doing exactly that with the Sunbelt-Atlantic Compact. FDOT doesn't appear to have made any tangible progress in about a year and a half on the Jacksonville corridor, I don't see why the city can't pick up that ball if it is really looking to build long-term capacity for once the $1.5 million from this grant runs out (which also directly positions seeking federal funding through federal rail programs beyond the rather vague pipeline suggested in this grant's work plan).

This is a project that addresses the return of passenger rail at a facility (at the time, owned by COJ) and what needs to be done to allow that to happen in a rail bottleneck through the urban core. I'll have to dig back up the RFP I saw last summer, but I didn't see an issue of why it couldn't move forward.

Furthermore, it would help to clarify a lot of what we're discussing right now for there to actually be a page on the city website, or its own website, for what is even happening with this grant-funded project. Chattanooga has managed that, JTA technically has, surely we can too in order to demonstrate how this is different from every other study that's already been done on this.

Hopefully, they'll get one up. As of now, I don't think COJ has even elected a consultant.

[Tacachale]

Ennis has said a lot of what I would, but I want to add, I don't blame Marcus (or anyone) for healthy skepticism on projects like this, especially given the boneheaded decisions of the past and the fact that there isn't a lot we can talk about just yet. But as the one in the administration who originally pushed to make this a priority, I've been impressed with the work put in so far.

There's a lot of work that needs to be done here by a lot of parties, and some things have evolved since we started (mostly for the better). I do want to say that (1) the administration is committed to making progress on the station, as am I personally, and (2) it absolutely wouldn't be even the spark of a concept of a plan if it wasn't the mayor driving it. That's not a knock on any other person or agency, it's just a complex situation with a lot of distinct stakeholders, and it needed someone to take the reins and coordinate between everyone. Fortunately, we have the mayor we have.

Marcus, let's get lunch or a drink some time. I'd definitely love to hear more of your feedback on the station.