Is U2C serious? Help me make it make sense....

[Jax_Developer]

Ken, good to know I may be incorrect on that $50M because that hitting the news a month or two ago (around the time the U2C press picked back up) was giving me red flags. Again, not trying to come at Chang.. I'm more so shocked that JTA would entrust an unproven leader. He has a background in building automation (in an industrial setting) for a client in a construction role, but has no background in automation technology itself which is by far the most important part.

The person selected to lead this project from a public standpoint, should have advanced degrees in EE or Comp Science.. hell even an ME. Not a civil engineer & I can't believe that even needs to be said? But I guess it did back in 2017. That circuit board just actually exposes how amateur the technology is & why Beep can't make their system work beyond X MPH. An experienced leader would have killed that option years ago. These jokers at JTA think this startup can compete with a google funded competitor. Not a chance.

[Ken_FSU]

Ken, good to know I may be incorrect on that $50M because that hitting the news a month or two ago (around the time the U2C press picked back up) was giving me red flags.

You're not wrong. The more I read about this reverse Venture Capital Fund, the more my spidey senses go up. If you look at the "hand-selected" startups that investor funds are being pushed too, almost all of them appear to have serious conflicts of interest in terms of their close historic ties to Chang Robotics. In the normal VC world, this would require an insane amount of disclosure, which I'm not really seeing.

Again, ultimately beside the point, but the whole U2C connection does remain a mystery.

I wonder what happened in 2019 to cause them to go their separate ways? 

[Jax_Developer]

Ken, good to know I may be incorrect on that $50M because that hitting the news a month or two ago (around the time the U2C press picked back up) was giving me red flags.

I wonder what happened in 2019 to cause them to go their separate ways?

I'm not 100% sure they did... maybe as an employee.

https://www.changrobotics.ai/govtech

We are leading the development of the world's largest autonomous mass transit system, revolutionizing urban mobility through cutting-edge technology, public engagement, and federal funding. With over $500 million in capital secured, our project is driving economic growth and attracting high-tech jobs, making our city a thriving center for innovation.

[jaxlongtimer]

Is Chang an investor in Holon? 

[Jax_Developer]

Is Chang an investor in Holon? 

Lol, at least confirmed he is an paid independent contractor providing both "Engineering Services" & "Management, Scientific, and Technical Consulting Services" so his involvement in the U2C certainly has continued past 2019.

https://jtafla.sbecompliance.com/

[tufsu1]

I have looked at the COJ website, but can't find it: a listing of the projects in the LOGT, with amounts budgeted and spent. Specifically, I'd like to know how much of the LOGT has JTA spent on the U2C and the Emerald Trail, and how much is budgeted for them over the life of the LOGT. Would make a great addition to the Mayor's Dashboard page.

In round numbers, the LOGT as proposed was $400m for U2C.
As adopted, it was $265m for U2C and $135m for Emerald Trail

[marcuscnelson]

Well,

I decided it was important to see what all these years of work and millions of taxpayer dollars had gone into, and I figured there's no better way to do that than to get up close and personal, so I took some time today to make my way downtown and try out NAVI myself, along with a number of friends watching live from my phone.

I'm... stunned.

For comparison, I first rode the Skyway from Jefferson to Rosa Parks and then back to Central Station. Along the way I noticed that there were a variety of people using it, mostly workers but also families. JTA only appears to have two Skyway trains in service, one for each side of the river, with trains about every 15 minutes. The stations seem reasonably well maintained but the trains are clearly getting into dire shape.

From Central I crossed the street to Bay & Julia to board NAVI. A man appeared to be smoking at the station, but walked away as I approached. The station is quite designed, with a lot of what appear to be frosted glass panels, including a big one on top with a stylized JTA arrow. I'm not sure if they have a warehouse full of replacement panels or if that's just not going to last. On the opposite side of the pedestal that included an upcoming buses screen (which lacked a line for NAVI) and a smaller touchscreen with a camera for communicating with the AIC, there's a screen that appears to be solely dedicated to broadcasting promotional content about the system, including footage of the vehicles testing down at SunTrax and a clip of Councilman Rahman Johnson. There are also buttons to request a wheelchair ramp or call for help. Once fares begin in October, there's a card reader on a smaller pedestal next to the station for off-board payment. They appear to not accept American Express.

The first NAVI vehicle to arrive was out of service with a sheet of paper labeling it as such, and the man inside appeared to drive off. The second was in service and allowed me aboard. The Beep employee in the driver's seat was friendly, the giant computer box in place of the front passenger less so. The passenger area of the vehicle is fully wrapped, meaning the view outside is rather poor. There are nine seats facing inward, six usable if someone in a wheelchair boards with the lift, which takes up a lot of interior room and is covered with a panel that includes another touchscreen and another promotional screen above it, with some safety information as well. There's another fold-down screen up front that displays announcements and shows upcoming stops. In addition to the van's infotainment screen (repurposed for some kind of operating display), there's a smaller screen left of the Beep employee that shows the status of the autonomous kit: Auto, Ready, Ready (Stationary), Stowed, and Manual.

Before we could move, I was told I needed to sit and buckle myself up. This appears to be required for all passengers. The Beep employee seems to control both the doors and the hazard lights, possibly also turn signals (that was hard to see from the passenger area). There are now a number of transit-only signals along the route, in addition to sensors above traffic poles and a scattering of NAVI-branded signal control boxes. Once we began to move, some challenges quickly became apparent. The vehicle needs to move from the north side of Bay Street (where the station is) to the south side in less than a block in order to turn south onto Pearl Street. It's hard to tell if the autonomous kit is capable of making this movement itself or requires help from the Beep employee. Along Water Street and Independent Drive, I was watching the small screen flicker between Auto, Manual, Ready, and Stowed as it moved eastward and stopped at Riverfront Plaza. There were also a number of sudden stops as it moved, which seemed to explain the need for seatbelts. These awkward movements continued as we moved onto Bay Street, where the vehicle swerves into traffic as it tries to avoid the parked cars near the former Courthouse. The ride is quite noisy, between the whine of the electric motors, the frequent automated announcements, and radio chatter from the AIC.

Just east of Lafayette Street, where Bay separates to accommodate the Hart Ramps, the vehicle moves onto a (rather badly paved) dedicated lane built between Gator Bowl Boulevard and its sidewalk. This includes a very strangely positioned stop that the vehicle essentially stops past (already listed as being for MOSH), and another stop across from Lot J (listed as the Four Seasons). At most of these stops, the vehicle would stop, but not open the doors. The vehicle then proceeds further east (through a puddle, today) before finally reaching the pedestrian crossing near Daily's Place, where it makes a U-turn to proceed west down Gator Bowl Boulevard. There is another stop (for the stadium), where I temporarily got off and walked around.

I crossed the street back to the Four Seasons station, where after a strangely long wait (the pedestal screen which now did include NAVI arrivals going from 4:09 to 4:12 and eventually to 4:19) before being met by the very same vehicle I had exited earlier, this time with another Beep employee aboard who exited to apparently examine something before reboarding. We then made a large U along Georgia Street, Duval Street, and then A Philip Randolph Boulevard (where one station appeared to still be under construction) before rejoining Bay Street. As we passed the Elbow, the Beep employee had to take over to pass two double-parked beer trucks, the kit taking back over at Market Street. The second Beep employee explained how he had only begun working back in February, discussing how the vehicle was still overly cautious and employees would need to help it along, especially around where construction was, which hopefully would make things easier as that work completed. There were only four vans operating at that time, and with this being a Thursday afternoon and tomorrow a holiday, it would be the last day of operation before the following Monday morning. He seemed to suggest that the hours might potentially expand later. I asked about how they would accommodate people leaving busy events such as football games as fall rolled around. His answer was only that they would simply keep running the eventual 14 vehicles to the best of their ability.

I finally reached Bay & Julia, where I had first boarded. The Beep employee's button to open the door seemed stubborn. After a wait at the intersection, it finally rolled away. I was the only member of the public I saw riding the vehicle today.

I am stunned, perhaps most of all by the overall quality of the experience. The Beep employees all appear like kind people doing their jobs, but witnessing the all these years of work and tens of millions of taxpayer dollars result in a product that appears no better, perhaps even worse, than the very first Test & Learn demonstrations in 2016 or the Armsdale demonstrations in 2021 or the experimental pilots elsewhere heightens my disappointment in this city's leaders, at JTA and elsewhere. Looking at what has been done in other cities with the amount of money now spent breaks my heart for Jacksonville. We have truly made an egregious, spectacular waste of the public good. Those responsible, not the Beep employees spending their days in vans but those who have marched us to this outcome over these many years ought to feel enormous shame for this final product. Jacksonville should take this opportunity now to conclude the long overdone experiment of an Ultimate Urban Circulator and figure out how to develop more of the true mass transit a region this size needs and deserves.

[thelakelander]

^Yes, the seatbelt thing was a requirement on the service Beep was driving in Lake Nola several years ago. It appears nothing has changed. Buckling up is the safe thing to do, since this is a real life experiment. Better to be safe than sorry if it immediately comes to an abrupt unexpected stop.

[jcjohnpaint]

I can't imagine getting most people to buckle up on most city transit systems in the country. Wait until they have large crowds of drunk fans from a game.

[Charles Hunter]

marcusnelson, your ride sounds similar to one related by a friend. They emphasized the jerkiness of the ride, especially during the U-turn at the eastern end of the route.

[thelakelander]

I can't imagine getting most people to buckle up on most city transit systems in the country. Wait until they have large crowds of drunk fans from a game.

This won't happen. They stop running at 7pm and only operate Monday through Friday. So its protected from the potential failure of attempting to serve crowds larger than its capability.

[marcuscnelson]

marcusnelson, your ride sounds similar to one related by a friend. They emphasized the jerkiness of the ride, especially during the U-turn at the eastern end of the route.

I'd really hoped, apparently more than warranted, that maybe I would be wrong somehow and it'd at least be a reasonably competent ride after all these years and all this money. But genuinely, there does not appear to be a valid or compelling reason to actually use NAVI. Just ride Route 11 toward the stadiums or get an Uber/Lyft, if nothing else you'll be more comfortable.

[Ken_FSU]

Well,

I decided it was important to see what all these years of work and millions of taxpayer dollars had gone into, and I figured there's no better way to do that than to get up close and personal, so I took some time today to make my way downtown and try out NAVI myself, along with a number of friends watching live from my phone.

I'm... stunned.

For comparison, I first rode the Skyway from Jefferson to Rosa Parks and then back to Central Station. Along the way I noticed that there were a variety of people using it, mostly workers but also families. JTA only appears to have two Skyway trains in service, one for each side of the river, with trains about every 15 minutes. The stations seem reasonably well maintained but the trains are clearly getting into dire shape.

From Central I crossed the street to Bay & Julia to board NAVI. A man appeared to be smoking at the station, but walked away as I approached. The station is quite designed, with a lot of what appear to be frosted glass panels, including a big one on top with a stylized JTA arrow. I'm not sure if they have a warehouse full of replacement panels or if that's just not going to last. On the opposite side of the pedestal that included an upcoming buses screen (which lacked a line for NAVI) and a smaller touchscreen with a camera for communicating with the AIC, there's a screen that appears to be solely dedicated to broadcasting promotional content about the system, including footage of the vehicles testing down at SunTrax and a clip of Councilman Rahman Johnson. There are also buttons to request a wheelchair ramp or call for help. Once fares begin in October, there's a card reader on a smaller pedestal next to the station for off-board payment. They appear to not accept American Express.

The first NAVI vehicle to arrive was out of service with a sheet of paper labeling it as such, and the man inside appeared to drive off. The second was in service and allowed me aboard. The Beep employee in the driver's seat was friendly, the giant computer box in place of the front passenger less so. The passenger area of the vehicle is fully wrapped, meaning the view outside is rather poor. There are nine seats facing inward, six usable if someone in a wheelchair boards with the lift, which takes up a lot of interior room and is covered with a panel that includes another touchscreen and another promotional screen above it, with some safety information as well. There's another fold-down screen up front that displays announcements and shows upcoming stops. In addition to the van's infotainment screen (repurposed for some kind of operating display), there's a smaller screen left of the Beep employee that shows the status of the autonomous kit: Auto, Ready, Ready (Stationary), Stowed, and Manual.

Before we could move, I was told I needed to sit and buckle myself up. This appears to be required for all passengers. The Beep employee seems to control both the doors and the hazard lights, possibly also turn signals (that was hard to see from the passenger area). There are now a number of transit-only signals along the route, in addition to sensors above traffic poles and a scattering of NAVI-branded signal control boxes. Once we began to move, some challenges quickly became apparent. The vehicle needs to move from the north side of Bay Street (where the station is) to the south side in less than a block in order to turn south onto Pearl Street. It's hard to tell if the autonomous kit is capable of making this movement itself or requires help from the Beep employee. Along Water Street and Independent Drive, I was watching the small screen flicker between Auto, Manual, Ready, and Stowed as it moved eastward and stopped at Riverfront Plaza. There were also a number of sudden stops as it moved, which seemed to explain the need for seatbelts. These awkward movements continued as we moved onto Bay Street, where the vehicle swerves into traffic as it tries to avoid the parked cars near the former Courthouse. The ride is quite noisy, between the whine of the electric motors, the frequent automated announcements, and radio chatter from the AIC.

Just east of Lafayette Street, where Bay separates to accommodate the Hart Ramps, the vehicle moves onto a (rather badly paved) dedicated lane built between Gator Bowl Boulevard and its sidewalk. This includes a very strangely positioned stop that the vehicle essentially stops past (already listed as being for MOSH), and another stop across from Lot J (listed as the Four Seasons). At most of these stops, the vehicle would stop, but not open the doors. The vehicle then proceeds further east (through a puddle, today) before finally reaching the pedestrian crossing near Daily's Place, where it makes a U-turn to proceed west down Gator Bowl Boulevard. There is another stop (for the stadium), where I temporarily got off and walked around.

I crossed the street back to the Four Seasons station, where after a strangely long wait (the pedestal screen which now did include NAVI arrivals going from 4:09 to 4:12 and eventually to 4:19) before being met by the very same vehicle I had exited earlier, this time with another Beep employee aboard who exited to apparently examine something before reboarding. We then made a large U along Georgia Street, Duval Street, and then A Philip Randolph Boulevard (where one station appeared to still be under construction) before rejoining Bay Street. As we passed the Elbow, the Beep employee had to take over to pass two double-parked beer trucks, the kit taking back over at Market Street. The second Beep employee explained how he had only begun working back in February, discussing how the vehicle was still overly cautious and employees would need to help it along, especially around where construction was, which hopefully would make things easier as that work completed. There were only four vans operating at that time, and with this being a Thursday afternoon and tomorrow a holiday, it would be the last day of operation before the following Monday morning. He seemed to suggest that the hours might potentially expand later. I asked about how they would accommodate people leaving busy events such as football games as fall rolled around. His answer was only that they would simply keep running the eventual 14 vehicles to the best of their ability.

I finally reached Bay & Julia, where I had first boarded. The Beep employee's button to open the door seemed stubborn. After a wait at the intersection, it finally rolled away. I was the only member of the public I saw riding the vehicle today.

I am stunned, perhaps most of all by the overall quality of the experience. The Beep employees all appear like kind people doing their jobs, but witnessing the all these years of work and tens of millions of taxpayer dollars result in a product that appears no better, perhaps even worse, than the very first Test & Learn demonstrations in 2016 or the Armsdale demonstrations in 2021 or the experimental pilots elsewhere heightens my disappointment in this city's leaders, at JTA and elsewhere. Looking at what has been done in other cities with the amount of money now spent breaks my heart for Jacksonville. We have truly made an egregious, spectacular waste of the public good. Those responsible, not the Beep employees spending their days in vans but those who have marched us to this outcome over these many years ought to feel enormous shame for this final product. Jacksonville should take this opportunity now to conclude the long overdone experiment of an Ultimate Urban Circulator and figure out how to develop more of the true mass transit a region this size needs and deserves.

Incredible, Marcus.

As well-written as it is deeply depressing.

[jaxlongtimer]

As I had said in a previous post, and based on Marcus posted experience, someone needs to figure out what this will cost per actual passenger mile and make a comparison to almost any other mode of mass transit to show the silliness and fiscal irresponsibility of this project.  Maybe one of the Council opponents could get the Council auditor to do so.

I think the ultimate way to kill U2C is for someone or group to compile cost per passenger mile (using JTA's most optimistic numbers, even if totally unrealistic) and show that cost in comparison to buses, Uber, Waymo, street cars, BRT, etc.... almost any other transit mode one can find.  Throw in horse and buggy even (can a horse be autonomous?  ).  We all know that U2C will be far more costly.

Then, publicize like crazy the results and embarrass the heck out of U2C supporters.  And, hope the City Council wakes up and puts their foot down if JTA doesn't back down voluntarily (a very unlikely scenario but maybe the board smells the coffee and overrides the staff).

[jaxoNOLE]

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/traffic/bay-street-closed-downtown-jacksonville-sewage-line-traffic/77-70ba919d-a379-4b95-a047-6c7270dca465

Part of Bay Street in Downtown Jacksonville will be reduced to all but one eastbound lane this week as JEA crews work to repair a section of the road that caved in, according to a JEA spokesperson.
...
The NAVI and other JTA buses were seen taking a detour, coming out of Marsh Street to make sure they could reach all of their stops on both the west and eastbound lanes.

I wonder if these detours are programmed on cutting-edge virtual rails, or if the vans are just being human-driven.