MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville

[urban_]

Is there anything we can do as citizens to change this? Are there going to be any public meetings anyone's aware of?

[jax_hwy_engineer]

Can't really force a private non-profit to stay open no matter how many citizens say they want it to. Huge failure on their part to not be able to stay open while preparing to move into a brand new facility in a new location...

[Bativac]

Mind-blowing to my daughter who is three.

Took my nephew there 7 or 8 years ago and he liked it....though half the interactive exhibits were broken.

Jax needs a science museum. It has always needed a better one but to close the only one in town is really embarrassing. A question of money and priorities I guess but that's Jacksonville all over. It's Easier Here.

[Ken_FSU]

MOSH is positioning it publicly to the effect of, "We'd rather focus our funding and resources on the new museum, rather than on the existing museum that has outlived its useful life." Which is ultimately their choice, but is also information that absolutely should have been disclosed in advance.

Hindsight is obviously 20/20, but for a project requiring this much public money ($50 million in MOSH's case, along with a 40-year, $1 land lease that the anti-Gateway crowd seems perfectly fine with), MOSH really should have held some public workshops/huddles with the community like the Jags did to allow taxpayers to raise such questions.

Certainly feels like they hid this information about a three-year closure just long enough to get their $50 million and their land deal prior to sweeping the rug out from under their employees (who were blindsided, some of whom have been working there for 20+ years) and out from under the local community.

Hope it works out in the long-run, but history doesn't speak well in Jacksonville to situations of closing/demolition the old thing in hopes that the new thing works out.

[arb]

Bruce Fafard, the prior MOSH CEO, had a horrible reputation as CEO of 121 Financial when I worked there, in which many employees felt his poor decision making and planning ultimately led to its merger with VyStar, and all the while VyStar and Community 1st continued to grow, 121 stayed stagnant. Unfortunately, this was my first thought when hearing about MOSH. Granted, he's no longer the CEO of MOSH but I wonder if lack of a prior stable plan when the museum was first seeking to expand, led up to this decision.

[Des]

The images you've seen on the renderings are probably the 3rd or 4th redesign because the design is too expensive, and the current iteration that you've seen on the renderings was over budget as well by like $80m. So, MOSH was looking to fire DLR Group/Kasper (DLR did the design and Kasper was brought in to produce the construction documents) because they couldn't produce a design that was within their budget, and I think they ended up hiring SmithGroup. I believe SmithGroup also selected a local architect to produce the CDs, but I'm not sure who.

I don't know how they're planning on shaving off ~$80m, especially if they're dishing out another chunk of change for another redesign, but I'm finding it difficult to believe the final result is going to be much better than their current facility. I get it if they're moving their facility for a much larger and better museum, but so far it sounds like it'll be a one-for-one move...

Our firm was a part of another team that didn't get selected for a redesign, and the total contract for both firms, civil, landscape, engineering, etc, was somewhere below ~$3m for design, construction documents, and CA. I don't know what SmithGroup's contract looked like, but I remember it being more. DLR Group's contract was also more than SmithGroup's.

[thelakelander]

Is this the case of a client demanding a $100 million dream with a $50 million budget?

[Fallen Buckeye]

Meanwhile here in Gainesville we're upgrading the Florida Museum of Natural History for $30 million and a one-year closure...

https://www.gainesville.com/story/news/2024/12/23/florida-museum-at-uf-to-close-in-march-for-construction-project/77026716007/

[copperfiend]

Gainesville runs laps around Jacksonville when it comes to museum offerings.

[Des]

Is this the case of a client demanding a $100 million dream with a $50 million budget?

Not necessarily. From what I've heard second-hand, it's more of if someone else were putting together the schedule of values for the project, it would be half the price.

[Jax_Developer]

The reality here is that the city has found a way to burn through a ton of money in the pursuit of gaining some prestige. There are so many issues with the MOSH project, it's hard to know where to start.

1). The MOSH's current footprint is in a great submarket with room to expand. The structure is also basically a massive shell, so not sure why the existing footprint was totally written off. Classic example of the American culture.

2). The MOSH will cost the taxpayers exceptionally more money than the $50M grant. The MOSH is another 2 acres of Riverfront that will never earn considerable city revenue. Considering the immense capital investment by the taxpayer to this immediate area, you have to question the merits behind the countless city-funded projects adjacent to this site.

3). The MOSH will create long-term liabilities for the tax payer. First off, there is absolutely no way this project comes in at budget & the comments by DES only reinforce that. Secondly, the tax payer is on the hook to recover more than 450 parking spaces as outlined in the Jags Parking Agreement. So either Kahn is going to be a good guy or the taxpayer now needs to find 450 parking spaces next to the Stadium.

4). Did any genius think, hmm around stadium events, traffic becomes a nightmare on Bay & surrounding roads. When do families typically like to enjoy their off time? So, there are several weekends out of the year where going to this will be very inconvenient. (FYI, the Jags play almost every game on Sunday at 1pm - maybe that could change lol.)

All-in-all, the taxpayer is getting absolutely raked on this one once again. And yet all I hear about is complaining from the powers that be about $8M or whatever to get UF to town? What are we actually doing here because this really gives off JV vibes.

[Steve]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/council-members-worry-parking-plan-for-new-mosh-will-discourage-visits/ar-AA1RyaBu?uxmode=ruby&ocid=edgdhpruby&pc=U531&cvid=692f08d3ba7e460ab0d52ca655b7dc0c&ei=9

We really haven't thought this whole thing through, and it shows we have no comprehensive plan here.

While I don't think the walk from the Arena garage is that bad distance-wise....it's not a great walk because of how we chose to develop around the former Hart Bridge ramps - it's awful.

Finally - and this is something I've asked many times: For events at the Arena or Ballpark, why do we not just raise the ticket prices by $3-4, and making parking wide open in those garages?

[fsu813]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/council-members-worry-parking-plan-for-new-mosh-will-discourage-visits/ar-AA1RyaBu?uxmode=ruby&ocid=edgdhpruby&pc=U531&cvid=692f08d3ba7e460ab0d52ca655b7dc0c&ei=9

We really haven't thought this whole thing through, and it shows we have no comprehensive plan here.

While I don't think the walk from the Arena garage is that bad distance-wise....it's not a great walk because of how we chose to develop around the former Hart Bridge ramps - it's awful.

Finally - and this is something I've asked many times: For events at the Arena or Ballpark, why do we not just raise the ticket prices by $3-4, and making parking wide open in those garages?

Seems like the U2C would be able to shuffle people back and forth between the parking garage and museum. Easier than navigating Bay Street and all the other hypothetical extensions it's supposed to handle.

(If it ever works as intended)

[Charles Hunter]

^ Heh, I came here to suggest the U2C could shuttle between the VyStar garage and MOSH.

Depending on where on Lot X the MOSH entrance will be, it is about 1200 feet from the closest garage to MOSH. This includes walking from a midpoint of the garage, and that the elevator/stairs are in the SE (APR/Adams) corner.

After exiting the garage and crossing Adams Street, a MOSH pedestrian would have about 100 feet of the D'Oro Garage ramp, then about 220 feet along the side of the D'Oro Garage. Will this frontage along A Philip Randolph have commercial activation, or is it just the side of the garage?
After crossing Forsyth Street, there is the 170 feet or so of the Manifest/Intuition block.
Then come two crossings of Bay Street, the second of which - for eastbound traffic - does not have a traffic signal. Or, it didn't in March 2025 when StreetView was captured. And you are still over 100 feet from the front door.

ETA ParkWhiz webpage - https://www.parkwhiz.com/vystar-veterans-memorial-arena-parking/?seller_id=1347

According to the ParkWhiz (!) site, the VyStar Arena Garage at Adams and APR is only open for Events at Sports Complex facilities. Will the City, or its contractor, want to open the garage for the possibility of a few dozen cars a day for MOSH? Will they have non-event pricing, so families can afford to use it? Does (or will) this garage have an attendant, or is it all pay by card?

Of course, the return trip will be worse, after having walked around MOSH for an hour, or two, or more.

[jaxlongtimer]

^If JTA had a robust Downtown circulating bus service/shuttle, this issue would be easy to fix.  There are several City garages that it could pass by plus some private lots offering multiple options for Mosh visitors.  However, we have no such service for this or for any other reason to get around Downtown in bad weather or for extended distances.

We are so far off the beaten path in setting Downtown straight... and to see us waste time and huge dollars on the U2C when we can't even address basic bus service for Downtown that most any city has, including ones much smaller than Jax.  It is 101 to do.