A Northbank renaissance in the making

[jaxlongtimer]

^ Appreciate your honesty as a "greedy developer"  .  Refreshing!

That said, there is a way to be greedy and preserve riverfront greenspaces.   Develop one block back from the river.  If you have green space between you and the river, you still have your riverfront view PLUS the value of green space as an amenity for enjoying the river and the great outdoors.  It may even make the property you develop more valuable than being directly on the river given you have the best of all worlds.  Unfortunately, I think we can all agree, the lack of any vision and standards by the City plus grossly incompetent deal making makes everyone frustrated and unhappy.

[fsu813]

I'll be that greedy developer and say that "preserving" all of the Riverfront is a huge mistake.

That's not been suggested anyone.

And the two high-profile new public spaces that are being planned -Riverfront Plaza & Shipyards West- have business/residential development proposed literally inside them. Restaurant, Cafe, apartments, food hall, etc.

Maybe even a TGI Friday's, if we get lucky

[marcuscnelson]

Hardwick seems like a pipe dream now. Doubtful it makes it to the finish line.

Apparently they're adding a hotel to it?

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/mar/16/dia-board-gives-the-hardwick-ambassador-hotel-projects-more-time/

I guess Southeast was on to something. I wonder if the Hyatt is going to have any issues with that.

If I was Southeast, I'd be pretty upset at how this has gone down. Not saying they wouldn't make changes too.. but the Carter group has already value engineered quite a bit, and is now, all of a sudden, looking to add a hotel component.. LOL. Don't get me started.

Not to mention all of the other plans Southeast has put forward with the DIA/DDRB basically ignoring them.. That master plan by his would have done more for DT than all of the Sports Complex & Riverfront Park development combined. I've never seen a city unable to capture waterfront development like Jacksonville is right now.

I'll be that greedy developer and say that "preserving" all of the Riverfront is a huge mistake. Literally just create the code to MANDATE a green space that is connected.. just like the riverwalk but beefed up. The Landing, being as infamous as it is, is probably the most obvious example for Jacksonville proving my point. Lets add River City Brew House to that list also! Development/improvement begins at the water and trickles its way upland. Happens everywhere but in JAX...

We will sit here in several years, looking at a completed park system that gets some temporary attention.. to then only be forgotten about because there is no reason to go there due to delayed or dumped projects. Forgotten renderings will continue to be our reputation nationally. Maybe I will be proven wrong, but we still have a very attractive jail right down the road, so this has to go well.. right!?

Personally, I'd probably like to see Southeast actually deliver on the Laura Trio before giving them the job of reconfiguring the entire riverfront. It seems a bit concerning how that project especially seems to have fallen into limbo. Not to mention that with everything that's happened since 2021 (particularly interest rates) I'm unsure if their riverfront project would still be able to come together as-proposed.

[tufsu1]

^ exactly - its been over a decade now of unfulfilled proposals and promises from Atkins

[fieldafm]

Hardwick seems like a pipe dream now. Doubtful it makes it to the finish line.

Apparently they're adding a hotel to it?

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/mar/16/dia-board-gives-the-hardwick-ambassador-hotel-projects-more-time/

I guess Southeast was on to something. I wonder if the Hyatt is going to have any issues with that.

If I was Southeast, I'd be pretty upset at how this has gone down. Not saying they wouldn't make changes too.. but the Carter group has already value engineered quite a bit, and is now, all of a sudden, looking to add a hotel component.. LOL. Don't get me started.

Not to mention all of the other plans Southeast has put forward with the DIA/DDRB basically ignoring them.. That master plan by his would have done more for DT than all of the Sports Complex & Riverfront Park development combined. I've never seen a city unable to capture waterfront development like Jacksonville is right now.

Comparing Carter to Southeast is like comparing the Houston Astros to the Chinese World Baseball Classic team.

As a developer, you should be aware that purchase contracts are routinely made subject to securing entitlements and the like.  That's no different than what is going on here.

A much worse outcome would be to convey the land over to a developer who never breaks ground on their project- and then try to sue them to get the land back... like what is happening at Sisters Cities Plaza. 

Or perhaps selling the land to a developer and then instead of holding those funds in escrow to be used to satisfy another part of an economic development deal to provide contractually obligated dedicated parking, they are used to fund flex space at Metro Park (which was never used then ultimately sold to the Jaguars 16 years later), and then losing in court when said developer sues you... like what happened with the Jacksonville Landing's East Parking Lot parcel.   

Or maybe deeding over land to build a second expansion of a corporate office park, and instead using that land for a surface parking lot going on almost 30 years... like what happened with the Interline campus in LaVilla.

Etc, etc.

[Jax_Developer]

1). Not sure I have seen a single site RFP take 2+ years in the type of market we just had. Maybe 08.
2). Southeast did the master plan, by no means does that automatically mean are the master developer across all sites. They would likely just be entitled to 'some'
3). You don't need to convey the land at once. The master plan was in 6 phased when it was developed. The idea is that there is some consistency/higher power at play. AND FUTURE planning.
4). No other plan announced has dealt with the issues around unusable land, the jail, and the usage of COJ's water parcels.

[fieldafm]

1). Not sure I have seen a single site RFP take 2+ years in the type of market we just had. Maybe 08.
2). Southeast did the master plan, by no means does that automatically mean are the master developer across all sites. They would likely just be entitled to 'some'
3). You don't need to convey the land at once. The master plan was in 6 phased when it was developed. The idea is that there is some consistency/higher power at play. AND FUTURE planning.
4). No other plan announced has dealt with the issues around unusable land, the jail, and the usage of COJ's water parcels.

Carter was selected in early 2022.  I don't know what world you are living in, but interest rates and subsequently cap rates are rising, economic growth is slowing, the cost of capital in the private equity markets is increasing, banks are requiring much lower LTVs (see: the inherent quandary for the cost of capital being more expensive- a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario)... and not shockingly deal flow is declining.   

Also in 2022, issues underground on this particular site have been identified that weren't disclosed in the original RFP.

If you think Southeast is the group that should be entrusted with large swaths of Downtown's riverfront... not only are you barking up the wrong tree... you are in the wrong forest.

[Jax_Developer]

Yup, and they have 0 commitments until 12/31/23. Also doesn't mean the site is entitled then, just that they have conceptual approval. So idk the math there adds up to me as more than 2 years. Not sure what world you are in either.

That happens all the time, and projects still move forward. They already VE'd the site because of it.

No thats a fat assumption on your part. I just said.. Southeast is the only company to put together a comprehensive plan, incorporating many big ticket elements no other developer has attempted to tackle. They should be given some parcels, but not "everything" as your implying. At the end of the day, they are the only folks with a vision.

I agree that the Laura St Trio is not a good look for them, but this plan was also proposed more than a year ago. They did well on the Barnett Building too. Its not as polar as you claim it to be.

[fieldafm]

Southeast is the only company to put together a comprehensive plan, incorporating many big ticket elements no other developer has attempted to tackle.

I guess you are too young to remember Ed Burr's failed attempt at the Shipyards.  That resulted in a bankruptcy and a grand jury investigation. 

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/the-shipyards-20-years-of-renderings/

Here's a better example of a master plan that doesn't rely on an unreliable developer (spoiler alert: Carter has actually developed several of the parcels here)
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/getting-it-right-columbus-commons/

Its not as polar as you claim it to be.

Forget the Trio. Remember that parking garage with over $13mm in taxpayer subsidies that they couldn't deliver? 

[Jax_Developer]

I'm speaking on the last economic boom. Previous 'plans' just add to our city slogan of "The city where renderings goto die." That plan was several years ago. Economics now are vastly different.

See all of my other responses on parking DT. Parking DT is a money pit and there's no return to be made, for any for-profit developer. If anything that proves my point, down below, on how the city can't hold a negotiation.

--

https://www.romeyard-tampa.com/

Great example.. This site is being developed by Related Group (lol). The RFP was awarded March 17, 2021. The site is receiving their final approvals now with it being in LUZ atm. Construction is happening this year.

Heres why JAX looks bad compared to other cities, like our neighbors on the gulf, when issuing RFP's.

- This plan was 18-acres... incorporating more than a dozen parcels
- This plan had a mandatory affordable housing component with Tampa Housing Authority
- This site was categorized as a Brownfield site
- This site is waterfront

So we have here... a $300M+ redevelopment, accounting for over 18 acres of redevelopment & incorporating affordable housing. All of that was done in the same timeframe our good folks at the Hardwick will end up having for conceptual approval. (Might I add there is literally 0 platting involved for the Hardwick!).

Oh.. Here's the kicker.. The City of Tampa had the foresight... to do the Brownfield Cleanup themselves... (I know shocking). It's almost like doing these cleanups make the parcels more marketable.

So.. unless something changes with our ability to say no, demand clauses that protect the COJ, and refuse these WACK extensions with major project modifications, our city will continue to be unable to perform an RFP. Our RFP's right now are basically developers fighting to be the exclusive negotiator with the DIA.. that's not how these were intended to work.

[fieldafm]

I'm speaking on the last economic boom. Previous 'plans' just add to our city slogan of "The city where renderings goto die." That plan was several years ago. Economics now are vastly different.

See all of my other responses on parking DT. Parking DT is a money pit and there's no return to be made, for any for-profit developer. If anything that proves my point, down below, on how the city can't hold a negotiation.

--

https://www.romeyard-tampa.com/

Great example.. This site is being developed by Related Group (lol). The RFP was awarded March 17, 2021. The site is receiving their final approvals now with it being in LUZ atm. Construction is happening this year.

Heres why JAX looks bad compared to other cities, like our neighbors on the gulf, when issuing RFP's.

- This plan was 18-acres... incorporating more than a dozen parcels
- This plan had a mandatory affordable housing component with Tampa Housing Authority
- This site was categorized as a Brownfield site
- This site is waterfront

So we have here... a $300M+ redevelopment, accounting for over 18 acres of redevelopment & incorporating affordable housing. All of that was done in the same timeframe our good folks at the Hardwick will end up having for conceptual approval. (Might I add there is literally 0 platting involved for the Hardwick!).

Oh.. Here's the kicker.. The City of Tampa had the foresight... to do the Brownfield Cleanup themselves... (I know shocking). It's almost like doing these cleanups make the parcels more marketable.

So.. unless something changes with our ability to say no, demand clauses that protect the COJ, and refuse these WACK extensions with major project modifications, our city will continue to be unable to perform an RFP. Our RFP's right now are basically developers fighting to be the exclusive negotiator with the DIA.. that's not how these were intended to work.

RFPs in Downtown Jax are 100% problematic.  This site (of which I am an owner) has published various articles (of which I am a contributor) detailing this ad nauseum.  The only problem in this specific RFP, is the timing.  If this specific RFP was done two years earlier, and marketed in the way that this RFP was marketed... there would have been an entirely different outcome. The original 2020 RFP for this site was awful and not widely-advertised. The 2021 RFP was much better, and widely advertised... and as such, had a tremendous response rate.  Unfortunately, the credit markets in 2022 are vastly different than 2021.  Hence, the delays.

Praising Southeast and downplaying Carter as developers is just as problematic.   

I'll be that greedy developer and say that "preserving" all of the Riverfront is a huge mistake. Literally just create the code to MANDATE a green space that is connected.. just like the riverwalk but beefed up. The Landing, being as infamous as it is, is probably the most obvious example for Jacksonville proving my point. Lets add River City Brew House to that list also! Development/improvement begins at the water and trickles its way upland. Happens everywhere but in JAX...

I'll also say that I agree with this point, as well.  The DIA's plans for Lenny's Lawn, the TUPAC site and the Shipyards is going to require a STAGGERING amount of taxpayer money... that the general public really can't comprehend as the numbers are basically hidden and VASTLY under-reported.  Just this week, the DIA suggested that fixing the piers (which were identified as far back as Ed Burr's scuttled attempt at the Shipyards of yester-decade) would cost more than $20mm. That doesn't include the MOSH site (which will require shoring up of its own). 

[Jax_Developer]

I'm speaking on the last economic boom. Previous 'plans' just add to our city slogan of "The city where renderings goto die." That plan was several years ago. Economics now are vastly different.

See all of my other responses on parking DT. Parking DT is a money pit and there's no return to be made, for any for-profit developer. If anything that proves my point, down below, on how the city can't hold a negotiation.

--

https://www.romeyard-tampa.com/

Great example.. This site is being developed by Related Group (lol). The RFP was awarded March 17, 2021. The site is receiving their final approvals now with it being in LUZ atm. Construction is happening this year.

Heres why JAX looks bad compared to other cities, like our neighbors on the gulf, when issuing RFP's.

- This plan was 18-acres... incorporating more than a dozen parcels
- This plan had a mandatory affordable housing component with Tampa Housing Authority
- This site was categorized as a Brownfield site
- This site is waterfront

So we have here... a $300M+ redevelopment, accounting for over 18 acres of redevelopment & incorporating affordable housing. All of that was done in the same timeframe our good folks at the Hardwick will end up having for conceptual approval. (Might I add there is literally 0 platting involved for the Hardwick!).

Oh.. Here's the kicker.. The City of Tampa had the foresight... to do the Brownfield Cleanup themselves... (I know shocking). It's almost like doing these cleanups make the parcels more marketable.

So.. unless something changes with our ability to say no, demand clauses that protect the COJ, and refuse these WACK extensions with major project modifications, our city will continue to be unable to perform an RFP. Our RFP's right now are basically developers fighting to be the exclusive negotiator with the DIA.. that's not how these were intended to work.

RFPs in Downtown Jax are 100% problematic.  This site (of which I am an owner) has published various articles (of which I am a contributor) detailing this ad nauseum. The only problem in this specific RFP, was the timing.  If this specific RFP was done two years earlier, and marketed in the way that this RFP was marketed... there would have been an entirely different outcome. The original 2020 RFP for this site was awful and not widely-advertised. The 2021 RFP was much better, and widely advertised... and as such, had a tremendous response rate.  Unfortunately, the credit markets in 2022 are vastly different than 2021.  Hence, the delays.

Praising Southeast and downplaying Carter as developers is just as problematic.   

I'll be that greedy developer and say that "preserving" all of the Riverfront is a huge mistake. Literally just create the code to MANDATE a green space that is connected.. just like the riverwalk but beefed up. The Landing, being as infamous as it is, is probably the most obvious example for Jacksonville proving my point. Lets add River City Brew House to that list also! Development/improvement begins at the water and trickles its way upland. Happens everywhere but in JAX...

I'll also say that I agree with this point, as well.  The DIA's plans for Lenny's Lawn, the TUPAC site and the Shipyards is going to require a STAGGERING amount of taxpayer money... that the general public really can't comprehend as the numbers are basically hidden and VASTLY under-reported.  Just this week, the DIA suggested that fixing the piers (which were identified as far back as Ed Burr's scuttled attempt at the Shipyards of yester-decade) would cost more than $20mm. That doesn't include the MOSH site (which will require shoring up of its own).

To be clear, I don't want to come across as praising Southeast. I just am yet to see another comprehensive plan put forth by another developer. And I think there are a few reasons why. I think what Southeast provided was a vision, and I have to say that's about where their expertise in DT runs out. Nonetheless, they were one of the first firms to do mixed-use conversions DT.. and for that there is something to be said. I honestly think it would be horrible to trust any one developer for a DT redevelopment. Needs to be a team of folks. What upsets me about the Carter team with the Hardwick is the complete curve ball of now adding(?) a hotel & reworking the scope. That's just not being fair to the other proposals and their promises.

I completely agree on your second point. The lack of information is what continues to hurt redevelopment DT and elsewhere around the city. LeAnna has one thing correct for certain and that is that U2C is a huge crime to the taxpayers of Jacksonville.

[fieldafm]

they were one of the first firms to do mixed-use conversions DT

Mixed-use adaptive reuses have been going on Downtown since the Delaney administration in 2003 (four mayors and twenty years ago).  Southeast was the second to last developer to do so (JWB being the most recent).

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/why-preservation-not-demolition-has-worked-downtown/

What upsets me about the Carter team with the Hardwick is the complete curve ball of now adding(?) a hotel & reworking the scope. That's just not being fair to the other proposals and their promises.

The original RFP allowed for both residential and hotel as potential uses.  Neither of the six winning bidders would have been immune to the changes in the capital markets in 2022, nor the site issues later uncovered/disclosed after the RFP was completed. 

[Jax_Developer]

they were one of the first firms to do mixed-use conversions DT

Mixed-use adaptive reuses have been going on Downtown since the Delaney administration in 2003 (four mayors and twenty years ago).  Southeast was the second to last developer to do so (JWB being the most recent).

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/why-preservation-not-demolition-has-worked-downtown/

What upsets me about the Carter team with the Hardwick is the complete curve ball of now adding(?) a hotel & reworking the scope. That's just not being fair to the other proposals and their promises.

The original RFP allowed for both residential and hotel as potential uses.  Neither of the six winning bidders would have been immune to the changes in the capital markets in 2022, nor the site issues later uncovered/disclosed after the RFP was completed.

Please don't compare city-funded housing redevelopment & what has been done at the Barnett building to prove a point. Apples to oranges. Also I love the constant age dig you got going. Unless there's another building I just don't know about... please enlighten me. (Huge fan of Vestcor).

Lets just blame capital markets then? Not that simple. This project has the luxury of virtually 0 land costs, and an almost 10% completion grant. All the renegotiation has made their situation worse for themselves. They are waiting for the next capital cycle, that's all. While we sit on the land. Meanwhile dozens of city-level projects elsewhere in FL will continue, unimpeded.

[vicupstate]

I'll be that greedy developer and say that "preserving" all of the Riverfront is a huge mistake.

That's not been suggested anyone.

And the two high-profile new public spaces that are being planned -Riverfront Plaza & Shipyards West- have business/residential development proposed literally inside them. Restaurant, Cafe, apartments, food hall, etc.

Maybe even a TGI Friday's, if we get lucky

I have to vehemently disagree with this post. TGI Friday's should take a back seat to Fuddrucker's. In fact bringing Hooter's back should be before both of those.