Plans in review for downtown two-way street conversion

[Charles Hunter]

Casual observation:  Our most successful retail corridor, St. Johns Town Center, has two way streets and it doesn't seem to be an issue at all  .  What is an issue there is a serious lack of reasonable parking spaces in proximity to the stores.  But, that does also prove people are willing to walk some distance from parking to their destination when appropriately motivated.  This suggest to me that moving much of Downtown parking to its edges should be on the table for future planning.  Adding a circulating downtown shuttle (ideally free due to some corporate sponsorships) would be icing on the cake.

Congratulations! You have just re-invented the mid-1970s downtown plan. Peripheral parking lots connected by shuttle buses to the downtown shopping and business core, eventually to be supplemented or replaced by the elevated people-mover.  Alas, the city continued to build and permit parking garages within the core. Then all the retail left DT for Regency, the Avenues, etc.

[thelakelander]

I interned for an architectural firm in Downtown Lakeland in the late 1990s, while in college. At the time, Main and Lemon Streets were three lane one-way pairs. As a driver, me and others speed to try and hit all the green lights (i.e. like people do on Main/Ocean, Jefferson/Broad, and State/Union in Jax today). They completed their two way conversion before 2000. In doing so, they reclaimed space that had been given to cars to create pedestrian promenades and linear parks through their core. They also strategically improved adjacent public spaces and provided incentives to restore long blighted properties along these corridors. The transformation has been pretty amazing to see. Based off that track record of success, that community was able to raise $110 million in seven years for a 100% privately funded urban park. Jax has more resources and should be able to accomplish more......if we can get our act together.

Here's a before and after picture of Downtown Lakeland's one-way to two-way street conversions. They incrementally converted their entire one-way street system during the mid-1990s and early 2000s. To say it has been a success is an understatement.

Kentucky Avenue - Before


Kentucky Avenue - After



Main Street - Before


Main Street - After (constrained version......did not move the curb & gutter initially)


Main Street - After in 2022 (unconstrained version = recently went back, eliminating some parking to widen sidewalk)


Lemon Street - After (two-way conversion + road diet = linear park through the downtown)

[Charles Hunter]

Quite the transformations.

Jax definitely needs to go with the fully unconstrained version.

[Fallen Buckeye]

It would be nice to have some dedicated ROW for ebikes and escooters, too. The only time I tried the ones downtown I was definitely nervous about getting run over and the asphalt made for a really uncomfortable ride, too. You have no idea how hidden dips are in the road until you travel by escooter. lol.

[thelakelander]

Bidding is expected to take place during the first quarter of 2023. Construction is expected to commence during the second quarter of 2023. The project is expected to be completed within 18 months of the project award. The estimated project cost is $4.9 million.

[simms3]

^That's only five garages sporadically spaced along a 10 city block stretch in a CBD where one can easily argue that "rush hour" is non existent.

I agree "rush hour" is non existent (now).  I'll just re-circle back to my original thought process - in the future I [hope] Jacksonville has, rush hour will certainly not be non-existent (and there will be more large garages eventually built to handle more office buildings).  Don't forget about big events happening downtown, as well.

A good rule of thumb is things start getting pretty dicey for two-lane roads when the AADT approaches 20,000. Outside of State and Union, nothing in downtown Jax is remotely close. Bay between Broad and Main is the closest at 12,000.

Adams has an AADT of 5,300 and Forsyth is at 7,300. In comparison, in downtown Orlando, SR 526/Robinson Street has an AADT of 17,500

Ok, but a couple things - wouldn't the two other factors here be:

1) How the AADT is spaced (for instance, what percentage of the count is held in how many hours)?
2) Is the 2-way two lanes or four lanes or more?

I Jacksonville's case, we are 2-way'ing to two lanes with no turn lanes.  It is possible and often done to 2-way to three lanes with a median lane that can either switch direction or act as a turn lane.

Not necessarily arguing here with you but just bringing up variables here because I don't believe in "formulas" since everything requires a bit of common sense and a plan unique to the situation and environment.

and that city is actively working with FDOT to reduce it from 4 to two lanes in order to squeeze in a cycle track and shared use path. They are of the belief that the lane diet with improve multimodal safety and the quality of life for their downtown residents. Another comparable would be Flagler Street in downtown Miami and its AADT of 6,400.

Ok well good for them...I hope it's good for us too.  I don't know enough about either of those roads specifically to compare them to any of the roads we are 2-way'ing as I don't (and have never) live in those cities.  I'll have to trust your judgment in the comparisons there.

Assuming target and posted speeds are 25mph or so, there should be plenty of opportunity to make vehicular left turns into a couple of parking garage entrances between 7-9am on weekdays on Forsyth Street.

I totally agree that right now there are no issues.  In my dreams downtown has about double the office space it does now in the same area and then it becomes more of an issue.  I guess we can worry about that issue then.

but considering the pedestrian should be the multimodal priority in the Northbank

I don't agree or disagree.  I just don't see, as a frequent pedestrian myself downtown, how the existing setup penalizes the pedestrian for the automobile.  But, Jax pedestrians are a different breed.  I rarely see jay walking (which is crazy to me that people would wait for the walk sign on streets that DON'T have much traffic, to your point).  Maybe to the analogy that people think parking is incredibly difficult in Jax, people also think walking downtown right now is taking one's life into one's hands.

In the end, its hard for me to see it as an issue that would keep a company from coming downtown.

I am hyper aware of a company right now that is switching downtown office buildings in 2023 (announcement coming soon) and for a variety of reasons (not saying it's my company or anything  ) I am aware of the employees' thoughts and the "steering committee"'s thoughts when choosing.  Let's just that you would be surprised, perhaps, how fragile people are about things downtown.  I know I was shocked at my fellow employees' opinions, in some cases.

People literally don't want to walk, at all, to the building (on-site/attached parking is just so crucial).  People are pretty apprehensive about homeless people.  Just the comments would blow your mind.  The Jax downtown office employee situation is a fragile little egg shell.

We all know the mentality in Jax - it only takes one gnat for people to abandon any sympathy for downtown (like it takes seeing the sight of one homeless person).  I just worry that even a slight increase in traffic inconveniences could turn people off of downtown.

Now I don't think two-waying Forsyth and Adams alone will tilt things in either direction but I'm a huge believer of not prioritizing suburban preferences over urban residents when it comes to revitalization of urban core neighborhoods. There's a huge captive audience we tend to ignore by placing to much focus on trying to turn the SJTC and St. Johns County lover on to downtown. IMO, we should place higher priority and focus on the people who reside within a three to five mile radius and cluster as many complementary pedestrian scale uses as possible within a compact setting. If all we can muster up is two blocks of compact traffic and activity, then make it the best two-block urban stretch of activity in the region. Do that well, and I believe we'll attract a lot more people (including some suburban people who will be drawn to the lively scene) than the handful we'll lose.

I can't disagree.  I am one of those residents who lives pretty close to downtown and purposefully chose my house to be within walking distance of a few dining/drinking options.  We all want the same things.

I just chalk "2-waying downtown" as a "fix" for things to "we need 10,000 units downtown and we'll be good then", meanwhile the same people expand the definition of downtown to 4 square miles and botch every single thing.

[simms3]

Vicupstate and Lake:

I don't think Greenville and Lakeland are apt comparisons for downtown Jax, in terms of this.  I think there's plenty to learn from each, but looking at Lakeland, a literal small town with a cutesy downtown, as a guide for what we should do in terms of capacity for our streets, is not common sense to me.  Greenville sort of the same, in my opinion.


I will just say this, as well - San Francisco started lane dieting some roads for buses and bike paths.  There are some successful corridors that didn't raise a lot of flags and worked better in the new formats, but they tried applying that scheme to any and all roads and it ruffled a lot of feathers and didn't always work out well.  There are a lot of studies from that city, and some actually show an *increase* in pedestrian accidents after changing a streetscape for multimodal options.

This is because it led to confusion for everybody and cabs/drivers who actually became more aggressive in frustration.  Now obviously that's a city with absolutely hectic and busy pedestrian and surface level transit activity, but, having lived there and immersed myself in the real estate/development/planning community, there, results of some of this stuff were actually pretty iffy and measured frustration in the city amongst all groups of street users increased in some cases.  There was never really any discussion I can remember to 2-way any existing 1-way streets and I don't think anyone ever thought the 1-ways were a problem.

I lived my entire existence there in multiple locations in and fairly close to downtown on 1-way streets, and I didn't own a car and walked or used transit everywhere.  My perspective on this is just so different.  I just never thought of 1-ways as an actual issue to urbanity since the biggest and best urban environments everywhere are basically built on 1-way streets and it never seemed to hamper businesses or pedestrian activity.  It's just so weird to me that we think this is an issue here.

[vicupstate]

Vicupstate and Lake:

I don't think Greenville and Lakeland are apt comparisons for downtown Jax, in terms of this.  I think there's plenty to learn from each, but looking at Lakeland, a literal small town with a cutesy downtown, as a guide for what we should do in terms of capacity for our streets, is not common sense to me.  Greenville sort of the same, in my opinion.


I will just say this, as well - San Francisco started lane dieting some roads for buses and bike paths.  There are some successful corridors that didn't raise a lot of flags and worked better in the new formats, but they tried applying that scheme to any and all roads and it ruffled a lot of feathers and didn't always work out well.  There are a lot of studies from that city, and some actually show an *increase* in pedestrian accidents after changing a streetscape for multimodal options.

This is because it led to confusion for everybody and cabs/drivers who actually became more aggressive in frustration.  Now obviously that's a city with absolutely hectic and busy pedestrian and surface level transit activity, but, having lived there and immersed myself in the real estate/development/planning community, there, results of some of this stuff were actually pretty iffy and measured frustration in the city amongst all groups of street users increased in some cases.  There was never really any discussion I can remember to 2-way any existing 1-way streets and I don't think anyone ever thought the 1-ways were a problem.

I lived my entire existence there in multiple locations in and fairly close to downtown on 1-way streets, and I didn't own a car and walked or used transit everywhere.  My perspective on this is just so different.  I just never thought of 1-ways as an actual issue to urbanity since the biggest and best urban environments everywhere are basically built on 1-way streets and it never seemed to hamper businesses or pedestrian activity.  It's just so weird to me that we think this is an issue here.

If one way streets were problematic in a smaller city (Lakeland), they would be even more so in a larger city. That said, both Lakeland and Greenville have been exponentially more successful with their DTs.   So that speaks well for having 2 way streets, not the opposite.   Besides, outside of 9-5 on weekdays, Greenville and Lakeland probably have a MUCH higher population in the DT core.   

As far as San Francisco, you are bring SF sensibilities (with its uber high density) to a city without them. If JAX is too big to compare to Lakeland/Greenville, then surely SF is too dense to compare to JAX.

The fact is, good urban design is the same regardless of city population. 

[thelakelander]

The fact is, good urban design is the same regardless of city population. 

Bingo.

[thelakelander]

^That's only five garages sporadically spaced along a 10 city block stretch in a CBD where one can easily argue that "rush hour" is non existent.

I agree "rush hour" is non existent (now).  I'll just re-circle back to my original thought process - in the future I [hope] Jacksonville has, rush hour will certainly not be non-existent (and there will be more large garages eventually built to handle more office buildings).  Don't forget about big events happening downtown, as well.

Conducting traffic analysis would include big special events as well.

Ok, but a couple things - wouldn't the two other factors here be:

1) How the AADT is spaced (for instance, what percentage of the count is held in how many hours)?
2) Is the 2-way two lanes or four lanes or more?

AADT means Average Annual Daily Traffic. Without getting into too much technical detail, it can be described as the total volume of vehicle traffic of a highway or road for a year divided by 365 days. It doesn't matter what the number of lanes are or the direction the traffic travels. Here is a link where you can see the AADT for all major roads throughout the state:

https://tdaappsprod.dot.state.fl.us/fto/

I Jacksonville's case, we are 2-way'ing to two lanes with no turn lanes.  It is possible and often done to 2-way to three lanes with a median lane that can either switch direction or act as a turn lane.

Not necessarily arguing here with you but just bringing up variables here because I don't believe in "formulas" since everything requires a bit of common sense and a plan unique to the situation and environment.

It would really be a horrible path to make infrastructure and traffic decisions without considering data, when there's a ton available to help you make these decisions to get the best ROI. You'd be amazed how dumb common sense alone can be. In generally, one can argue that downtown Jacksonville is what it is today because people have used too much of their own version of common sense instead of logic and factual data that was also available to help in the decision making process. TMCs or Turning movement counts should also be considered when determining the ultimate design of these types of projects. From the look of the plans, it does seem that they are including left turn lanes at certain locations. I suspect, identifying the existing and future traffic conditions through a certain horizon year was conducted prior to the two-way conversion design work getting underway.

Ok well good for them...I hope it's good for us too.  I don't know enough about either of those roads specifically to compare them to any of the roads we are 2-way'ing as I don't (and have never) live in those cities.  I'll have to trust your judgment in the comparisons there.

This is where doing traffic analysis on the front end help temendously. Plus, Jax benefits from this not being anything new or transformational. The country is full of good and bad examples. As of now, if you want to know how not to do downtown revitalization, we would be a great example. So it's a good thing that we're starting to embrace some things that have been successful in big, mid-size and small communities across the country for decades now.

I totally agree that right now there are no issues.  In my dreams downtown has about double the office space it does now in the same area and then it becomes more of an issue.  I guess we can worry about that issue then.

To me, this is the bigger question and challenge for downtown Jacksonville. I find it really hard to see something coming along in the near or distant future that will result in downtown Jacksonville's glut of 1980s office spaces being backfilled with that same use. Most of our towers were built by large local companies that are now defunct. Plus the office market has changed. FIS is a good example, as they preferred building new instead of taking over a dated high-rise. Then, now in a post pandemic economy, I wonder if they would have bothered building that new office building at all, if they knew what was ahead. So what do we do with these buildings and spaces long term? Office, hotel, residential?

I don't agree or disagree.  I just don't see, as a frequent pedestrian myself downtown, how the existing setup penalizes the pedestrian for the automobile.

Right sizing streets that have too much capacity for one mobility choice over others can come in many forms.  Perhaps there's a corridor where wider sidewalks to accommodate more outdoor cafes (increasing seating capacity or revenue for restaurants and bars) is of more important than having that space wasted by an extra auto travel lane (Lakeland). Perhaps, there's a strong desire to integrate fixed transit like LRT (Houston) or a cycle track (Orlando). Or maybe there's a desire to cut out auto traffic 100% for pedestrian use (Manhattan has several examples in recent years). Every street and every city has a unique story and vision. It's infrastructure should be tailored to properly serve it.

But, Jax pedestrians are a different breed.  I rarely see jay walking (which is crazy to me that people would wait for the walk sign on streets that DON'T have much traffic, to your point).  Maybe to the analogy that people think parking is incredibly difficult in Jax, people also think walking downtown right now is taking one's life into one's hands.

I don't see Jax has any different from most places. Historically, I think we (political and civic leaders) overcomplicate our revitalization strategies, which tend to end up with us doing things that hurt more than help. The Landing is a good example. A dated asset that could have been a $12 million fix is now a hole that will be empty for a generation and cost taxpayers $100 million to attract back the foot traffic that was already there. A simple learning lesson is keep/upgrade what you have and focus on complimentary infill on adjacent lots, abandoned buildings and parking lots. Upgrading public infrastructure like streets, parks and sidewalks are a good example of upgrading what you have.

I am hyper aware of a company right now that is switching downtown office buildings in 2023 (announcement coming soon) and for a variety of reasons (not saying it's my company or anything  ) I am aware of the employees' thoughts and the "steering committee"'s thoughts when choosing.  Let's just that you would be surprised, perhaps, how fragile people are about things downtown.  I know I was shocked at my fellow employees' opinions, in some cases.

People literally don't want to walk, at all, to the building (on-site/attached parking is just so crucial).  People are pretty apprehensive about homeless people.  Just the comments would blow your mind.  The Jax downtown office employee situation is a fragile little egg shell.

I'm, not surprised at all. Now I would be very surprised if that company's decision makers and employees were demographically reflective of Jax's overall demographics. I would also be surprised if the majority of its decision makers and employees actually lived in downtown or the immediate surrounding neighborhoods. With that said, those same fragile people would have a totally different mindset of the downtown environment if Laura or Adams Street were lined with shops, restaurants and consistent foot traffic. Everything is a bit of a balancing act to achieve the desired long term outcome or vision. 

I just chalk "2-waying downtown" as a "fix" for things to "we need 10,000 units downtown and we'll be good then", meanwhile the same people expand the definition of downtown to 4 square miles and botch every single thing.

The key is knowing that 2-waying downtown streets isn't a "fix". However, that doesn't mean some streets should not be converted from one-way to two-way. It really means that Jax civic leaders and politicians should stop using buzzwords that they don't understand, to sell people on solutions that these things don't actually deliver.

[jaxlongtimer]

My observation is that many world cities, much larger than Jax in most cases, are moving toward pushing cars altogether out of their urban cores.  Imagine totally closed streets that serve as pedestrian plazas and bikeways as NYC has done with Broadway.  Tokyo is taking a step forward, closing the famed main street through its high end shopping district, Ginza, on weekends. Heck, St. Augustine's closed St. George Street probably does more in a week than all of downtown Jax in a year  .

For once, why don't we become a leader to the future and plan a downtown for only mass transit, delivery and emergency vehicles and drop off/pick up vehicles for hire. 

As I noted about Town Center, most everyone parks on the fringes and walks to the stores.  Walking or ferrying in visitors to Downtown could similarly work if we properly planned it with things to motivate people to want to visit. 

This is where a long term master plan pays off but our City leaders are asleep at the wheel.  Rather than steer with the wheel, we just spin it.

Tokyo's closed street through Ginza on weekends:


NYC's Broadway:

[Charles Hunter]

My observation is that many world cities, much larger than Jax in most cases, are moving toward pushing cars altogether out of their urban cores.  Imagine totally closed streets that serve as pedestrian plazas and bikeways as NYC has done with Broadway.  Tokyo is taking a step forward, closing the famed main street through its high end shopping district, Ginza, on weekends. Heck, St. Augustine's closed St. George Street probably does more in a week than all of downtown Jax in a year  .

For once, why don't we become a leader to the future and plan a downtown for only mass transit, delivery and emergency vehicles and drop off/pick up vehicles for hire. 

As I noted about Town Center, most everyone parks on the fringes and walks to the stores.  Walking or ferrying in visitors to Downtown could similarly work if we properly planned it with things to motivate people to want to visit. 

This is where a long term master plan pays off but our City leaders are asleep at the wheel.  Rather than steer with the wheel, we just spin it.

Congratulations! You have - again - summarized the mid-1970s downtown plan. Very limited traffic within the core, which would be bound by one-way pair of State/Union, Main/Ocean, Broad/Jefferson, and (my memory is fuzzier on the south boundary) Bay/Water. Parking would be outside of this ring and connected to the core by, at first shuttle buses (JTA's "Spirit Special" - hey it was the bicentennial), then by the People Mover.  Alas, that didn't work out.

[jaxlongtimer]

^ Thanks for the moral support  .

I might add that the theme parks are also 100% pedestrian oriented and visitors either walk or are ferried in from some distance.

I also point out that the Main Street Bridge and Bay Street were closed to traffic during the Super Bowl here and it was a huge success.  Hard to believe that has become a faded memory rather than an example to aspire to permanently emulating.  We don't even learn from our own lessons  .

[Bativac]

^ Thanks for the moral support  .

I might add that the theme parks are also 100% pedestrian oriented and visitors either walk or are ferried in from some distance.

I also point out that the Main Street Bridge and Bay Street were closed to traffic during the Super Bowl here and it was a huge success.  Hard to believe that has become a faded memory rather than an example to aspire to permanently emulating.  We don't even learn from our own lessons  .

You still need to give people a reason to go down there. I remember the Super Bowl; that was a huge event and a big reason to go downtown. So is (was?) the Jazz Festival. And Art Walk, once upon a time. I'm just one person, but anytime I come back and visit, I ask about going downtown. The response is always the same from friends and family: "Why?"

I live in a not huge but pretty dense city (about 4 or 5 times as densely populated as Jax) and our small downtown is pretty busy most nights and packed on weekends... two way streets and all. Because there are businesses and restaurants people want to visit. Ample parking in big, free garages.

Changing the streets back to 2 way sounds great but it sure isn't going to change much else. Not until people have a reason to want to be downtown. I'm not sure what you can do to fix that in Jacksonville. I will say that Greenville's downtown is amazing. Whatever Jax can steal from them, do it.

[Ken_FSU]

And Art Walk, once upon a time.

Can someone remind me, what happened with Art Walk that caused it to become such a shell of its former self?

Funding?

Violence?

It's honestly a pretty sad sight in 2022.