JTA to open No Frills Brooklyn Skyway Station

[marcuscnelson]

^ First of all, welcome!

Seeing as U2C still happening is somewhat in question, I don't know how much there is to argue with in regards to that. But I would be surprised if there were no fares, seeing as it seems pretty well intended for app payment akin to Uber or Lyft.

[thelakelander]

^With BRT running down Park, running the U2C to Riverside and Five Points makes little sense. Add a BRT station in Brooklyn (with the JRTC being the transfer point to the Skyway) and call it a day.

The BRT and Skyway seem to be serving different purposes though. The Flyer BRT is medium- to long-distance commuters, while the Skyway (like Lymmo in Orlando or Metromover in Miami) is an urban circulator. The BRT stops in Brooklyn are more likely to be used by people working in Brooklyn than anyone living there (unless they do a reverse commute).

The systems aren't mutually exclusive. There's some cross pollination needed for all of them to be successful. For example, Metromover in Miami is fed riders by Metrorail. There are some stops on the fringe of downtown Miami that are served by Metrorail (ex. like Overtown) that aren't served by Metromover. The location of Brooklyn to the Northbank is very similar to Overtown's location to Miami's historic CBD. With BRT running down Park Street in Brooklyn every 10 to 15 minutes and also connecting into the Skyway at the JRTC, one could argue that it would be a waste of millions to extend the U2C along the same corridor. Strategically locate a BRT stop on Park, close to Forest Street (so that the Southside of Brooklyn is accessible to the transit network) and use the millions saved to connect the Skyway/U2C into an area of the urban core that is not adequately served. Oh and no, the U2C won't be free.

[WAJAS]

I decided to do some research to further inform my position, and wow, the Skyway is in a worse state than I thought. In 2018, it cost 12 USD per rider, which is 5.54/12.1 times the cost per rider of Lymmo/Metromover. Sadly, there is not any more recent data, but it wouldn't be good anyways b/c COVID affected the 2019/2020 fiscal year. I expect the Flyer routes increased ridership somewhat after 2018, and that the closure of the Jefferson and Convention Center station during all of 2018 decreased ridership. I'd assume the actual Skyway cost per rider is about 8.6 based on an annual ridership of 1.2 million. That's 3.87/8.47 times the cost per rider of Lymmo/Metromover. Honestly, the system has actually been in an upwards direction in the past decade.

Back on topic, the Brooklyn station would need at least 66 daily riders to match the rest of the line, which is a 100% achievable target IMO (assuming no Weekend service). That's only 33 two-way trips. If it has any more than 66 daily riders, it will decrease the cost per rider of the total system, which I assume will be a given based on the number of residential units and restaurants within 1/4 mile.

I wish JTA had more detailed ridership numbers and technical data in general. Station by station ingress/egress would be appreciated.

[thelakelander]

Orlando and Miami have done a great job of building up and densifying their downtowns since 2000, which benefit the Lymmo/Metromover. In Jax, unfortunately, we've done the exact opposite, finding a way to largely miss out on the two major urban economic boom periods of the first two decades of the 20th century. The Skyway suffers greatly as a result. A comparison of these three urban circulator systems really highlights the importance of supportive land use policy and strategy.

[marcuscnelson]

JTA's Making Moves this month had a segment about the new Brooklyn Station.

https://youtu.be/X8EoRQr42XY?t=886

[Ken_FSU]

Thanks for sharing (and time-coding!), Marcus.

Will use this line multiple times a week when it opens.

Would be cool to see a second leg of scooter share stretch from the new Brooklyn Station into Riverside/Five Points.

[bl8jaxnative]

Orlando and Miami have done a great job of building up and densifying their downtowns since 2000, which benefit the Lymmo/Metromover. In Jax, unfortunately, we've done the exact opposite, finding a way to largely miss out on the two major urban economic boom periods of the first two decades of the 20th century. The Skyway suffers greatly as a result. A comparison of these three urban circulator systems really highlights the importance of supportive land use policy and strategy.

These are good things to miss out on.  This is pure tail wagging the dog level stuff.


The purpose of public transportion should be to provide _NEEDED_ movements to people WHO CAN NOT WELL AFFORD A CAR.   Doing anything else with it is elistist, harmful and self serving.

[Zac T]

Orlando and Miami have done a great job of building up and densifying their downtowns since 2000, which benefit the Lymmo/Metromover. In Jax, unfortunately, we've done the exact opposite, finding a way to largely miss out on the two major urban economic boom periods of the first two decades of the 20th century. The Skyway suffers greatly as a result. A comparison of these three urban circulator systems really highlights the importance of supportive land use policy and strategy.

These are good things to miss out on.  This is pure tail wagging the dog level stuff.


The purpose of public transportion should be to provide _NEEDED_ movements to people WHO CAN NOT WELL AFFORD A CAR.   Doing anything else with it is elistist, harmful and self serving.

Are you saying people who can afford a car should not use public transportation? The purpose of public transportation should be to provide needed movements to people who can and cannot afford a car and anyone else who wants to use it. Transit-dependent neighborhoods should be given priority however we should also be focused on building an efficient and reliable transportation system throughout the entire region so those who currently drive are encouraged to seek other options. Driving a car shouldn't be the end goal.

[thelakelander]

Orlando and Miami have done a great job of building up and densifying their downtowns since 2000, which benefit the Lymmo/Metromover. In Jax, unfortunately, we've done the exact opposite, finding a way to largely miss out on the two major urban economic boom periods of the first two decades of the 20th century. The Skyway suffers greatly as a result. A comparison of these three urban circulator systems really highlights the importance of supportive land use policy and strategy.

These are good things to miss out on.  This is pure tail wagging the dog level stuff.


The purpose of public transportion should be to provide _NEEDED_ movements to people WHO CAN NOT WELL AFFORD A CAR.   Doing anything else with it is elistist, harmful and self serving.

Are you saying that Jacksonville's urban core neighborhoods missing out on two economic booms in the last 20 years is a good thing?

[WAJAS]

Any updates on this? It's been a while, and there's still no construction.

[marcuscnelson]

Obviously this project appears to have quietly evaporated in the face of JTA attempting to make the U2C conversion happen instead, but a thought: With all the money DIA is already spending to incentivize and subsidize projects in Brooklyn, is there a case for the DIA handing money to JTA with the explicit purpose of getting that station open, to leverage the money spent getting Whole Foods and all the new apartments built? Probably won't happen (unless Lori Boyer sees this) but possibly a worthwhile thought exercise?

[thelakelander]

No, not a chance. The market for apartments in Brooklyn is already there. The Skyway and U2C are irrelevant in Brooklyn from a market perspective. It would not be a good use of the DIA's resources. If JTA really wanted a station in Brooklyn, they already have more than enough money for it. It's simply not a priority for them.

[marcuscnelson]

That makes sense. Just seems bad from an urban planning standpoint that the transit system is such a non-factor in development patterns. But yeah, they should have just done it.

I wonder if maybe it might have turned out that the system is breaking down to the point of no longer being physically able to operate that additional route on a schedule? Just spitballing.

[thelakelander]

It's certainly bad planning. Unfortunately, that's where we find ourselves in Jacksonville today.