Is a gas tax increase a solution to Jax's funding woes?

[marcuscnelson]

Action on the bill as amended 8 times (or is it 7?) by the Committee of the Whole, will go to City Council next week.
To come out of CotW, simple majority (10 votes), to pass LOGT at Council requires 11 votes
Diamond - no comments
Bowman - will offer amendment next week @ 4 cents for 20 years, voting "no" today as it is not needs-driven
Ferraro - can be done w/out raising taxes, will vote No
Salem - voting Yes to free up funds for septic tank replacement, fund Emerald Trail, other bike/ped facilities
Boylan - can't support today, community involvement lacking, lack of communication of benefits of projects, prospect of future federal funds that may reduce need for as much LOGT - would like to table until next week to get more answers
Defoor - will vote out of CotW, still not comfortable, has not made up mind on vote at Council
Carlucci - job creation, septic tanks, Emerald Trail, invest in community - yes
Newby - yes, sometimes need to raise taxes to better community - infrastructure, Emerald Trail, broken promises of Consolidation
Priestly-Jackson - yes, Nassau and Clay already at 12 cents, majority of Florida counties levy 12 cents; quality of life issues for neglected communities, unmet promises, JTA are forward-thinking experts, jobs
Morgan - yes today, will continue to listen to constituents before final vote, jobs, JSEB, need more discussion on some projects
White - yes
Pittman - yes, Mr. Ford (JTA) and team are knowledgeable, innovative, make life better for children and grandchildren, jobs
Carrico - my town hall meeting is tomorrow, seek deferral
Cumber - no, quarter-of-a-billion dollars will go to existing Skyway structure, we have greater needs, only thing in the law is JTA's share
Gaffney - yes, believe in moving forward, JTA and small businesses
Freeman - yes, fulfill broken promises
Becton - no, ignore third option, his bill (2021-289) to fund infrastructure projects without raising taxes, LOGT bill is all about raising taxes, cost of living going up, sold as jobs bill - oversell, mortgaging children/grandchildren's future, my district isn't getting anything
Hazouri - yes, historical, continue to listen to public, bring amendments to committee if needed, working with Mayor has been open and a partnership, have to also pass septic tank bill - $100M over 2 years

Boylan - move to defer, have another CotW meeting next Tuesday at 4PM (OGC - there is a conflicting meeting at that time)
hand vote [sound cut out]  - change to 3pm Tuesday - must have failed

Vote on Bill as Amended
Pass 13-6

Knowing Diamond is a no, guessing Defoor is a yes, and Carrico no, the remaining opinions put us at just barely 11-8. Odds are the vote will be close no matter what.

Cumber amendment, restricting JTA from using LOGT for prior commitments (?)
Passes 13-5

I think this is Cumber #1 on here, which might be meant to prevent them from spending LOGT money on Bay Street.

[Charles Hunter]

I couldn't find the table listing all the amendments, so I was going off the discussion. It could apply to Bay Street; I thought it applied to the existing Skyway structure - but don't really know.

[Charles Hunter]

To summarize, the Committee of the Whole passed the LOGT bill, as amended, out of committee, to be considered by the full Council at a Special Meeting next Wednesday.  The amendments passed were:

The Carlucci amendment to divert $132 Million from the Skyway to the Emerald Trail (passed 14-4).

Cumber amendment restricting JTA from using LOGT funds for prior commitments.  The Council sound was cutting out during this discussion, so I really have no idea what this does (13-5)

Cumber amendment inserting "revolving door" provisions into the LOGT bill. City or JTA employees who had involvement with the LOGT, are prohibited from working for any companies with LOGT contracts for two years.  (11-7)

Dennis amendment requiring $250 million (of more than $900 million) to be spent with certified Jacksonville Small and Emerging Business (JSEB) firms, or Disadvantaged Business Enterprise (DBE) firms.  (17-0)

Priestly-Jackson amendment to delete the "Soutel Road road-diet" project from the table listing all the projects. The funds were removed at a previous meeting, but the list was developed before then. She wanted to make sure the project was really gone. (17-0)

There are still a few public meetings about the bill before the Special Council Meeting, and some of the council members that voted "yes" to move the bill out of committee said their vote may be affected by what they hear at those meetings.

[jaxjags]

Somehow I still have a problem with this whole process. The main/original purpose talked by the Mayors office and headlines in the news for LOGT was to free funds for septic/sewer work. Yet only 100 million appropriated for a $1 billion problem? Still smells to me like Lot J. Talk about septic tanks - Fund U2C. The amendments may have dampened the the U2C but my opinion is it needs to be killed in favor of better options, such as upgrade SkyWay and expand with streetcars.

[marcuscnelson]

Somehow I still have a problem with this whole process. The main/original purpose talked by the Mayors office and headlines in the news for LOGT was to free funds for septic/sewer work. Yet only 100 million appropriated for a $1 billion problem? Still smells to me like Lot J. Talk about septic tanks - Fund U2C.

One important thing is that the LOGT funds themselves can't be used for septic/sewers. At least part of the idea is that there will be future appropriations to accomplish exactly this. They aren't planning to ask for all $3-400 million freed up (the expected total ask if I remember correctly) at once. I'd like to think Curry isn't dumb enough to take this potential goodwill from getting an infrastructure bill passed and immediately burn it on chasing Lot J again, at least in the form it failed in. Now, once Khan and friends get around to asking about the Four Seasons again, there could perhaps be cause for concern.

The amendments may have dampened the the U2C but my opinion is it needs to be killed in favor of better options, such as upgrade SkyWay and expand with streetcars.

Personally, I think Council is capable (meaning legally) of doing exactly this, the same way the United States Senate can order NASA to build a specific rocket. They could add an amendment ordering JTA to spend $X million on an overhaul of the monorail system and $Y million on the development of a streetcar expansion or on commuter rail or the terminal or anything like that.

The challenge is that Council lacks both the institutional know-how (lobbyists aren't going to write such an amendment for them, they don't know enough about transit to do it themselves, and JTA continues to push for U2C) and the ideological interest (a painfully large number of people on Council have basically zero interest in transit in general, and frankly don't seem interested in much beyond being in their seat to say no to things unless Curry asks otherwise) to do so. So unless a bunch of people here want to take a crack at writing an amendment, sitting down with a council member to propose they sponsor it, and trying to hold back JTA long enough and building a PR campaign strong enough to pass it, I don't know.

[jaxoNOLE]

Knowing Diamond is a no, guessing Defoor is a yes, and Carrico no, the remaining opinions put us at just barely 11-8. Odds are the vote will be close no matter what.

There are still a few public meetings about the bill before the Special Council Meeting, and some of the council members that voted "yes" to move the bill out of committee said their vote may be affected by what they hear at those meetings.

Out of the "Yes" votes today, Morgan, Boylan, and DeFoor look like possible defectors. I think Bowman remains a "No." Morgan's town halls have been fairly quiet, but a regularly-scheduled one for District 1 will occur on 5/24.  I think she wants to be "yes" and will be a "yes" absent a strong public showing against the LOGT on 5/24.

Boylan has said multiple times he wants to support the bill and just doesn't have the answers he needs yet. I think he's stuck between personally wanting to be a "yes" and knowing how unpopular it is in his district.

DeFoor's stance is similar to Boylan's position, but she provided clearer feedback at an earlier CotW meeting. She needed 3 concerns met: A detailed plan for the LOGT and the general fund revenue reallocations (re: quality of life improvements promised); Timing issues (both for why the tax is needed now and for adequate public input); and restoring trust in the process not only of passing the tax but ensuring the funds go where they have been promised. I think the delay of the final vote by 1 day helps with the timing issue re: public input, and the Salem amendment partially addressed the trust factor. I doubt a detailed plan comes to fruition by next week, so absent some back-channel assurances for the upcoming CIP list, she may be a "no".

I agree with Marcus' vote total as a point estimate, but I see Morgan as the more likely #11 than DeFoor. The likely outcome looks like 10-12 "yes" votes.

[jaxjags]

Somehow I still have a problem with this whole process. The main/original purpose talked by the Mayors office and headlines in the news for LOGT was to free funds for septic/sewer work. Yet only 100 million appropriated for a $1 billion problem? Still smells to me like Lot J. Talk about septic tanks - Fund U2C.

One important thing is that the LOGT funds themselves can't be used for septic/sewers. At least part of the idea is that there will be future appropriations to accomplish exactly this. They aren't planning to ask for all $3-400 million freed up (the expected total ask if I remember correctly) at once. I'd like to think Curry isn't dumb enough to take this potential goodwill from getting an infrastructure bill passed and immediately burn it on chasing Lot J again, at least in the form it failed in. Now, once Khan and friends get around to asking about the Four Seasons again, there could perhaps be cause for concern.

The amendments may have dampened the the U2C but my opinion is it needs to be killed in favor of better options, such as upgrade SkyWay and expand with streetcars.

Personally, I think Council is capable (meaning legally) of doing exactly this, the same way the United States Senate can order NASA to build a specific rocket. They could add an amendment ordering JTA to spend $X million on an overhaul of the monorail system and $Y million on the development of a streetcar expansion or on commuter rail or the terminal or anything like that.

The challenge is that Council lacks both the institutional know-how (lobbyists aren't going to write such an amendment for them, they don't know enough about transit to do it themselves, and JTA continues to push for U2C) and the ideological interest (a painfully large number of people on Council have basically zero interest in transit in general, and frankly don't seem interested in much beyond being in their seat to say no to things unless Curry asks otherwise) to do so. So unless a bunch of people here want to take a crack at writing an amendment, sitting down with a council member to propose they sponsor it, and trying to hold back JTA long enough and building a PR campaign strong enough to pass it, I don't know.

Thanks - My point wasn't bring back lot J, but that our officials (especially the Mayor) always have ulterior motives and tend to hide what they really want to do. Sell JEA, Fund Lot J. Sell LOGT for Septic Tanks, Fund U2C. Also I get that the septic tank removal was from general funds freed by the tax, but we need a bigger funding commitment.  So lets find a way to fund septic removal at $100 million a year for 10 years. I've lived here for 30 years on and off, and the city needs to live up to it's responsibilities and promises made to many underserved neighborhoods.

Marcus keep up the good work on this. I hope you are correct about stopping U2C. We shall see. I hate to see an all or nothing happen here but we may be headed that way. That's why I was not pleased to see the Skyway/U2C hijack the LOGT discussion.

[Charles Hunter]

If it is only 10 "yes" votes, it fails. 11 votes are needed to increase the Local Option Gas Tax.

336.021 County transportation system; levy of ninth-cent fuel tax on motor fuel and diesel fuel.—
(1)(a) Any county in the state, by extraordinary vote of the membership of its governing body or subject to a referendum, may levy the tax imposed by ss. 206.41(1)(d) and 206.87(1)(b). County and municipal governments may use the moneys received under this paragraph only for transportation expenditures as defined in s. 336.025(7).

Although not explicitly defined, an "extraordinary vote" is generally considered to be a Majority Plus One, or in the case of City Council, 11 votes.

[Tacachale]

Yes, we're seeing it play out right now with the LOGT. The majority of council members opposing the LOGT were more than ready to give hundreds of millions in tax money away to Lot J a couple of months ago.

[fsu813]

I listened/watched.

Interesting that DeFoor emphatically expressed her conflicted emotions about supporting it. Her virtual town meeting was just prior, and the clear majority were in favor.

I suspect she & Boylan will come around. They're big picture people.

[marcuscnelson]

Gave a speech at Hazouri's town hall tonight. Here was Ford's response.

I think there's a obviously a lot to unpack in that, and I think we I was talking with our chair over there, which is, there is a development in terms of this technology, much the same as it was 30 years ago when there was development of the original Skyway. The original Skyway it cost $183 million. So if you look in today's dollars that's probably conservatively, we're talking about over half a billion dollars if we were to build the same exact two and a half mile footprint. And that is something that we evaluated in terms of looking at this project where we're talking originally 379 for a 10 mile autonomous vehicle system that is prepared for the future it's scalable.

I mentioned earlier it's about two to three years when you would see vehicles on Bay Street. The first, the first phase, the subsequent phase is going to be six to seven years to develop that during that timeframe, just like I think six to seven years ago our phones are different, the technology is moving so rapidly, and so the challenge is, do we make a decision now, and develop a Skyway to prepare it for the future that $240 million investment is converting it to a back to a roadway that allows us to adapt to new technologies coming in the future things that we haven't thought of. And that was the original design of the Skyway and unfortunately, and much more permanent and restrictive decision was made that locked us in to a monorail technology.

So, I think, you know, obviously, we have to make our point in terms of the investment that we're recommending here, we know that downtown Jacksonville is going to develop. We don't expect it to develop in a way that people are not going to need to move around, they're going to need to get to work, they're going to need to get to grocery store, they're going to need to do a whole host of things. This is probably the most inexpensive solution going forward. If we start looking at fixed guideways such as rail streetcars, things of that nature. It's permanent, it's not flexible, and frankly it's going to be there for quite some time similar to what we have now.

And what we're looking at is an investment that allows us to be flexible going into the future, leveraging technologies that are being developed, there's one other piece to this too. And we talked about it quite often. It is the ancillary technologies that can be hung on to these vehicles. So these vehicles. Yes, they're going to move people, and that's our original plan and that's the original design, but it also has the ability to actually use its sensors to identify over rubbish issues to identify issues in terms of road conditions. So just, you know, I think for a moment, we can't kind of think about this project from where we sit today, but think about the possibilities of the future of these mobile laptops with sensors that will help us identify a whole host of activities that we now do with a person in a truck, moving around with a camera, a lot of the actual Lidar and sensors and radar that we have on these vehicles will have an alternative purposes to make us much more efficient, not just for the JTA but also for the city. Thank you.

[thelakelander]

That was a bunch to say without ever talking about how land use plays a role in the success or failure of transit, regardless of whether it is fixed or not. Nevertheless, none of this has anything to do with whether we should be including the U2C in the LOGT. They are saying whatever they need to in order to get local tax money for this project.

[Ken_FSU]

^Reading this, it's frustrating how much of the negative opinion toward U2C comes from JTA's basic inability to message all these cool features. I wonder how many of the naysaying locals and City Council members would be more supportive of U2C if JTA had simply said upfront that the option might be there to upgrade the clown cars with rubbish sensors by 2040. I get it, we're an 800 square mile city with diverse transportation needs, but I don't know think there's a Jaxson among us who would disagree that the most pressing transportation issue that Jacksonville currently faces is the rampant proliferation of clowns rolling over debris. High time we fulfilled the promises of consolidation by helping our most vulnerable clowns better detect puddles and sticks.

[thelakelander]

^To me, it's frustrating to hear JTA spend more time talking about new technologies than figuring out how to operate and provide better service with existing operations. We don't need JTA to try and figure out how to use Lidar or tell us what the pavement crack rating of asphalt is.

Gave a speech at Hazouri's town hall tonight. Here was Ford's response.

I think there's a obviously a lot to unpack in that, and I think we I was talking with our chair over there, which is, there is a development in terms of this technology, much the same as it was 30 years ago when there was development of the original Skyway. The original Skyway it cost $183 million. So if you look in today's dollars that's probably conservatively, we're talking about over half a billion dollars if we were to build the same exact two and a half mile footprint. And that is something that we evaluated in terms of looking at this project where we're talking originally 379 for a 10 mile autonomous vehicle system that is prepared for the future it's scalable.

I mentioned earlier it's about two to three years when you would see vehicles on Bay Street. The first, the first phase, the subsequent phase is going to be six to seven years to develop that during that timeframe, just like I think six to seven years ago our phones are different, the technology is moving so rapidly, and so the challenge is, do we make a decision now, and develop a Skyway to prepare it for the future that $240 million investment is converting it to a back to a roadway that allows us to adapt to new technologies coming in the future things that we haven't thought of. And that was the original design of the Skyway and unfortunately, and much more permanent and restrictive decision was made that locked us in to a monorail technology.

So, I think, you know, obviously, we have to make our point in terms of the investment that we're recommending here, we know that downtown Jacksonville is going to develop. We don't expect it to develop in a way that people are not going to need to move around, they're going to need to get to work, they're going to need to get to grocery store, they're going to need to do a whole host of things. This is probably the most inexpensive solution going forward. If we start looking at fixed guideways such as rail streetcars, things of that nature.

Prove it. There's a lot out there right now that clearly shows that this is no where close to being the most inexpensive solution now or going forward. If you don't care about stimulating TOD, there's no need for fixed guideways upgrading the Skyway infrastructure. Once you move away from fixed guideway, a bus will always be much cheaper, carry more people and be able to operate at speeds consistent with the posted speed limits.

It's permanent, it's not flexible, and frankly it's going to be there for quite some time similar to what we have now.

This is a plus....assuming they care anything about the ability to stimulate TOD. Unfortunately, I don't think JTA really cares about that as much as getting to play with this AV toy.

And what we're looking at is an investment that allows us to be flexible going into the future, leveraging technologies that are being developed, there's one other piece to this too. And we talked about it quite often. It is the ancillary technologies that can be hung on to these vehicles. So these vehicles. Yes, they're going to move people, and that's our original plan and that's the original design, but it also has the ability to actually use its sensors to identify over rubbish issues to identify issues in terms of road conditions. So just, you know, I think for a moment, we can't kind of think about this project from where we sit today, but think about the possibilities of the future of these mobile laptops with sensors that will help us identify a whole host of activities that we now do with a person in a truck, moving around with a camera, a lot of the actual Lidar and sensors and radar that we have on these vehicles will have an alternative purposes to make us much more efficient, not just for the JTA but also for the city. Thank you.

Are we asking JTA to do R&D on AV technology or do we want our public transit agency to focus on providing public transit? Jacksonville taxpayers don't need to be on the hook for stuff the private sector is already spending billions on to figure out.

[Ken_FSU]

^That line basically dismissing fixed transit had me shaking my head.

I'm sure he's a nice guy, but Nate Ford needs to go.

What an awful hill to die on, speculative AV mini-shuttles as your city's long-term mass transportation solution.

Deeply troubling as well that across numerous town halls, op-eds, and public presentations, nobody at JTA even seems capable of clearly articulating the benefit of U2C to the community. I honestly don't even think they know themselves.

Pure sunk cost fallacy.

Pure chasing the shiny new thing at the expense of the proven commodity.

Name me one other city where this level of incompetence exists.