The Jaxson asks JTA 12 questions about the U2C

[thelakelander]

LOL thanks for the entertaining response. Some of those responses sound more like grasping at straws and not being able to answer the obvious challenges at hand that they have no control over.

I was very insistent that although their setup at Armsdale is cool to look at, it doesn't necessarily demonstrate that the technology is capable of mixed-traffic operation on Bay Street. Of course I pointed out the cost issue; now they're claiming that the FTA has informed them that demolishing the Skyway would require payback of all $183 million with interest.

We can patch up the system, not expand and focus on feeding it with riders until it's useable life is up without paying back anything. So the FTA payback thing has no direct tie to taxpayers "having" to convert the Skyway to the U2C as currently proposed.

There was a particularly heated bit about the virtues of being first.

The first of what? The first not to be a pilot? Or the first to rip apart a higher capacity fixed transit system and turn it into a Frankenstein mix of something that cost more than streetcar, that may or may not work as envisioned? I still see no reason why they can't be the first of whatever by implementing the already funded $44 million Bay Street Innovation Corridor.

Several of them made speeches about how the program would help underserved communities eventually, and whatever's been done with FSCJ and how it will somehow attract young people downtown (I did respond that as a young person, we need more than AVs, but not sure that meant much).

As proposed, the Springfield route won't even be done until 2035-40. Not sure why we'd even bring up serving underserved communities for something that may or not reach their neighborhoods after 2040. We can dump a lot more LOGT money into reducing the headways on the existing bus routes and get more bang for our buck (decades earlier) for underserved communities.

When I pointed out the Metromover expansion, they said that Miami and Detroit had built out their systems while Jacksonville hadn't, which is why they were successful.

I'm not for sure this is historically accurate. Detroit's system has been more successful than Jax's but it has been a failure. Miami's is much more extensive but it has been fed by TOD and a 24 mile long heavy rail system that connects the suburbs of Miami-Dade with the Metromover and Downtown. If following the Miami route, we'd do something like LRT between the Northside and Southside with a "Government Center" type station downtown that connects those riders with the Skyway. We'd actually do that first, before extending the Skyway.

And that the federal government would need to see the initial system fully built out before maybe pitching in for an expansion to (I'm pretty sure this was just an example, not an indication of actual future plans) SJTC.

What? Did they actually say SJTC, as in the U2C possibly being extended that far? This sounds like a flat out lie. First, the U2C routes don't even match what the original routes of the Skyway were supposed to be. None of it really has anything to do with building anything to do with SJTC.

There was also some discussion about the platooning feature. Apparently they're dropping the ride hailing via app because it screws up headways.

Could they give one example of where platooning autonomous vehicles actually exists? Also, how does platooning work with elevators, considering they can't ramp it down Hogan Street or Bay Street?

I got dressed down a few times with personal stories of the team members' backgrounds.

The group seems like cool people. Not sure how that equates to asking the public to fund this dream 100% with local money though.

At one point near the end I was being repeatedly asked why I wasn't listening to what they were saying about how it all worked. They kept bringing up Waymo and I kept pointing out that Waymo's implementation is a pilot and doesn't necessarily indicate that their implementation would work.

I'm not sure why Waymo even matters. I get the impression that lots of conflicting messages are being tossed out to people, in order to sell this project. That's a big red flag.

At another point I was talking about how I wouldn't mind private companies taking the financial risk, and in return was asked where progress began, and there was a whole thing about how Amazon and others would only seek the profitable routes while JTA would be serving underserved communities with its routes.

Since underserved communities aren't even being served with the proposed project, I'm not sure why they are even being mentioned as a selling point for the $379 million investment.

They seemed to take insult at the idea that JTA wasn't a serious competitor in the industry, and the VP of Automation asked if him going back to Amazon and proposing the same thing somehow made it more worthy. They brought up Nat Ford's record for some reason.

Nat is a good guy but we're talking about something they literally have no control over.......and they want the public to fund it at the expense of more pressing public needs.

When I said that part of my perspective had been informed by people outside of Jacksonville the VP seemed to take offense to that. There's probably other stuff, it was a long three hours.

No one should take offense to better understanding the pros and cons of a proposal by reviewing peer experiences in other communities. I would hope that the JTA group would be doing the exact same. If so, it would help them be better prepared to respond to many of the basic concerns that  many professionals have identified as major challenges.

Apparently some unnamed company coming to Jacksonville is going to have a U2C stop inside their lobby. Not sure how that's going to work with wet tires but they kept bringing it up.

The same can happen with the Skyway or a bus. This means nothing.

[marcuscnelson]

As I said, it was a long three hours.

There was a particularly heated bit about the virtues of being first.

The first of what? The first not to be a pilot? Or the first to rip apart a higher capacity fixed transit system and turn it into a Frankenstein mix of something that cost more than streetcar, that may or may not work as envisioned? I still see no reason why they can't be the first of whatever by implementing the already funded $44 million Bay Street Innovation Corridor.

Essentially to build a full autonomous vehicle network in a "dense" urban setting. I mentioned streetcars early on and the VP kept having little zings about how "can't do that with a streetcar" for things like rolling into a lobby or changing course to respond to floods (not sure how that works if you don't put the required sensors on every street) or the platooning thing.

Several of them made speeches about how the program would help underserved communities eventually, and whatever's been done with FSCJ and how it will somehow attract young people downtown (I did respond that as a young person, we need more than AVs, but not sure that meant much).

As proposed, the Springfield route won't even be done until 2035-40. Not sure why we'd even bring up serving underserved communities for something that may or not reach their neighborhoods after 2040. We can dump a lot more LOGT money into reducing the headways on the existing bus routes and get more bang for our buck (decades earlier) for underserved communities.

The pamphlet they gave me still shows the "Autonomous Avenue" conversion starting soon after Bay Street, the Remaining Skyway Conversion two years after the start of Bay Street construction and Neighborhood Expansion two years after that.

I forgot to mention, they're making a big deal out of the Mayo Clinic thing using the Navya shuttle, heralding it as Level 4 operation. I kept saying that come on, Mayo Clinic's road isn't the same as Bay Street, but they insisted that Mayo is at times busier than Bay. So, I don't know.

When I pointed out the Metromover expansion, they said that Miami and Detroit had built out their systems while Jacksonville hadn't, which is why they were successful.

I'm not for sure this is historically accurate. Detroit's system has been more successful than Jax's but it has been a failure. Miami's is much more extensive but it has been fed by TOD and a 24 mile long heavy rail system that connects the suburbs of Miami-Dade with the Metromover and Downtown. If following the Miami route, we'd do something like LRT between the Northside and Southside with a "Government Center" type station downtown that connects those riders with the Skyway. We'd actually do that first, before extending the Skyway.

I brought up the TOD thing, their response was the whole "AV in lobby" thing from the mysterious company and saying that the flexibility was a good thing because it's not like they'd stop serving the existing routes just because they've redirected for a special event or football game. Seeing as there are only a limited number of shuttles, not sure how that works. One thing I'm realizing I never got a chance to point out was that they made a big deal of how buses can be anywhere from $400k for a regular diesel bus to $900k for an electric bus, but if I remember correctly these vehicles are supposed to be in the $400-600k range.

And another thing, at one point they put me on the van, and I brought up what's been said here about how little money is going to Amtrak, and they were very insistent that JTA was the only one doing anything about rail at all, and how the JRTC was right next to and "connected" to the old terminal, and a whole thing about how expensive trains are. That conversation didn't go anywhere.

And that the federal government would need to see the initial system fully built out before maybe pitching in for an expansion to (I'm pretty sure this was just an example, not an indication of actual future plans) SJTC.

What? Did they actually say SJTC, as in the U2C possibly being extended that far? This sounds like a flat out lie. First, the U2C routes don't even match what the original routes of the Skyway were supposed to be. None of it really has anything to do with building anything to do with SJTC.

Again, pretty sure it was just a random example of a popular destination, because they were also claiming that Bay Street's actual average speed is low enough that something more akin to the existing AVs with a max of ~20mph are enough to keep up, and that buses only travel around 12mph in that area anyway. We were in the Olli then, and they did a little demonstration of the torque of the electric motors, and how the Olli can actually travel 50-60mph but is just governed to 20mph. I asked whether it could do anything like that autonomously, and they said no.

There was also some discussion about the platooning feature. Apparently they're dropping the ride hailing via app because it screws up headways.

Could they give one example of where platooning autonomous vehicles actually exists? Also, how does platooning work with elevators, considering they can't ramp it down Hogan Street or Bay Street?

They said was that we couldn't do that with a streetcar. I think they mentioned being able to have vehicles follow one vehicle, but I'm not sure. They talked about a hypothetical of sending 5 car trains with 1 operator to move 100 people each after games and special events, but they didn't demonstrate that capability. I had no idea the elevator thing was actually happening, so I never brought it up.

I got dressed down a few times with personal stories of the team members' backgrounds.

The group seems like cool people. Not sure how that equates to asking the public to fund this dream 100% with local money though.

As I said, lot of talk about how Miami & Detroit did their thing, a bit of deflection about how they'd just been hired to make it happen and that the decision for AVs was made before they got there, and some sour grapes about "well, if they want to kick us out, their loss."

At one point near the end I was being repeatedly asked why I wasn't listening to what they were saying about how it all worked. They kept bringing up Waymo and I kept pointing out that Waymo's implementation is a pilot and doesn't necessarily indicate that their implementation would work.

I'm not sure why Waymo even matters. I get the impression that lots of conflicting messages are being tossed out to people, in order to sell this project. That's a big red flag.

The thing I'm struggling with is seeing a pathway to make changes without blowing up the tax entirely, especially seeing as most of council is more concerned about the tax itself than about what it would fund. Apparently one of them spoke to Cumber, and ultimately her opposition came down to it being a regressive tax rather than anything about the system.

They seemed to take insult at the idea that JTA wasn't a serious competitor in the industry, and the VP of Automation asked if him going back to Amazon and proposing the same thing somehow made it more worthy. They brought up Nat Ford's record for some reason.

Nat is a good guy but we're talking about something they literally have no control over.......and they want the public to fund it at the expense of more pressing public needs.

They seem to genuinely believe that they do have control over it. They were showing off the receivers that go up on poles and opening up the signal cabinets and talking about how they were deciding what system for vehicle communication would be the best to put in the cabinets.

When I said that part of my perspective had been informed by people outside of Jacksonville the VP seemed to take offense to that. There's probably other stuff, it was a long three hours.

No one should take offense to better understanding the pros and cons of a proposal by reviewing peer experiences in other communities. I would hope that the JTA group would be doing the exact same. If so, it would help them be better prepared to respond to many of the basic concerns that  many professionals have identified as major challenges.

I mean, I didn't explicitly say that much of what I've received is serious concern about what the hell is going on over here, as well as flat out statements of the technology not working, and utter shock at the price tag. But I suppose that could have been inferred.

Apparently some unnamed company coming to Jacksonville is going to have a U2C stop inside their lobby. Not sure how that's going to work with wet tires but they kept bringing it up.

The same can happen with the Skyway or a bus. This means nothing.

I'm not sure I was clear. They parked the AVs inside the building for the day and said they literally expect them to have a stop inside the building. Like, roll in, let in or out people, and then roll out. I asked kinda sarcastically whether they were going to have doors as large as the big slide-up door at Armsdale but they didn't really answer. No idea what building it could even be, but they were excited about it.

[Charles Hunter]

Could the Roll In/Roll Out (RIRO?) building be the Four Season (Landscape Company)?
The New Berkman 3? (or whatever it will be called)

[thelakelander]

Essentially to build a full autonomous vehicle network in a "dense" urban setting. I mentioned streetcars early on and the VP kept having little zings about how "can't do that with a streetcar" for things like rolling into a lobby or changing course to respond to floods (not sure how that works if you don't put the required sensors on every street) or the platooning thing.

They mentioned the flood sensor thing. I didn't even bother with that because it sounds like a waste of money. If Bay Street is on the verge of flooding, we don't need sensors to tell us that.  For Bay to flood, we're looking at a major storm like a hurricane. No transit will be operating for those sensors to make sense paying for in a real life urban environment.

The pamphlet they gave me still shows the "Autonomous Avenue" conversion starting soon after Bay Street, the Remaining Skyway Conversion two years after the start of Bay Street construction and Neighborhood Expansion two years after that.

I'm highly skeptical and those aren't the dates in the technical documents hosted on their website. At this point, I don't believe Bay has even been designed. Whenever it is, it will have to go through DDRB and the same review protocols as every other downtown development.

I forgot to mention, they're making a big deal out of the Mayo Clinic thing using the Navya shuttle, heralding it as Level 4 operation. I kept saying that come on, Mayo Clinic's road isn't the same as Bay Street, but they insisted that Mayo is at times busier than Bay. So, I don't know.

That's just ridiculous. Mayo is a parking lot and they weren't running that passenger-less shuttle in mixed traffic at posted speed limits higher than the shuttle goes. The more and more I hear, the crazier this sounds.

I brought up the TOD thing, their response was the whole "AV in lobby" thing from the mysterious company and saying that the flexibility was a good thing because it's not like they'd stop serving the existing routes just because they've redirected for a special event or football game. Seeing as there are only a limited number of shuttles, not sure how that works. One thing I'm realizing I never got a chance to point out was that they made a big deal of how buses can be anywhere from $400k for a regular diesel bus to $900k for an electric bus, but if I remember correctly these vehicles are supposed to be in the $400-600k range.

And they'd need a ton of these things. There's a reason this is now higher in capital cost than traditional forms of fixed transit that move thousands of more people. Also, I believe we all know by now that "flexibility" does not stimulate TOD. No developer is interested on investing millions on a true TOD project where the transit can pick up and move.

And another thing, at one point they put me on the van, and I brought up what's been said here about how little money is going to Amtrak, and they were very insistent that JTA was the only one doing anything about rail at all, and how the JRTC was right next to and "connected" to the old terminal, and a whole thing about how expensive trains are. That conversation didn't go anywhere.

You can buy lots of trains and/or buses for $423 million. Any comparisons of expensive have gone out the door when we're talking about hundreds of millions in local money being needed for an investment of something unproven.

Again, pretty sure it was just a random example of a popular destination, because they were also claiming that Bay Street's actual average speed is low enough that something more akin to the existing AVs with a max of ~20mph are enough to keep up, and that buses only travel around 12mph in that area anyway.

Buses blow through those lights on Bay, Forsyth and Adams now. They move through them at a much faster speed than the 15mph max e-scooters do. To get a 12mph average, one would have to get stopped by a light at every block. Anyone who is downtown on a consistent basis knows that this is not the case.

We were in the Olli then, and they did a little demonstration of the torque of the electric motors, and how the Olli can actually travel 50-60mph but is just governed to 20mph. I asked whether it could do anything like that autonomously, and they said no.

Basically validating that much of this is out of their control. Also, I'm not aware of anything on a public street in the US doing anywhere close to 20mph. More like 8 to 12mph due to safety reasons.

They said was that we couldn't do that with a streetcar. I think they mentioned being able to have vehicles follow one vehicle, but I'm not sure. They talked about a hypothetical of sending 5 car trains with 1 operator to move 100 people each after games and special events, but they didn't demonstrate that capability. I had no idea the elevator thing was actually happening, so I never brought it up.

You could run a streetcar at grade and not even fool with screwing with the Skyway. There's no design at this point. How to get down to ground level is something they still need to figure out. Instead of sending a hypothetical 5 AV shuttle buses to move 100 people, it would be more efficient to move mass crowds in buses that can drive faster than 12mph and not have to take turns doing up and down elevators. I could promote the benefits of what they'd like to do better than they can. Some of these responses sound outright silly from an engineering perspective.

As I said, lot of talk about how Miami & Detroit did their thing, a bit of deflection about how they'd just been hired to make it happen and that the decision for AVs was made before they got there, and some sour grapes about "well, if they want to kick us out, their loss."

Jacksonville would be fine. I'm not sure anyone would realize the loss.

The thing I'm struggling with is seeing a pathway to make changes without blowing up the tax entirely, especially seeing as most of council is more concerned about the tax itself than about what it would fund. Apparently one of them spoke to Cumber, and ultimately her opposition came down to it being a regressive tax rather than anything about the system.

I sent Cumber an email yesterday. I hope she reads it. But yes, that's the challenge. Most on the council don't have the technical background or time to dive into this. They tend to fall on extreme sides of either being for raising taxes or against them. Without the people making a big fuss to get some council members on the fence to make some concessions with the project list, Jax will be screwed.

They seem to genuinely believe that they do have control over it. They were showing off the receivers that go up on poles and opening up the signal cabinets and talking about how they were deciding what system for vehicle communication would be the best to put in the cabinets.

They do but they don't. They still can't provide logical answers to logical questions that are outside of their control. However, none of this logical stuff may even matter to council as a whole.

I'm not sure I was clear. They parked the AVs inside the building for the day and said they literally expect them to have a stop inside the building. Like, roll in, let in or out people, and then roll out. I asked kinda sarcastically whether they were going to have doors as large as the big slide-up door at Armsdale but they didn't really answer. No idea what building it could even be, but they were excited about it.

So they parked a car inside of garage? Very transformational!

[Charles Hunter]

Could the Roll In/Roll Out (RIRO?) building be the Four Season (Landscape Company)?
The New Berkman 3? (or whatever it will be called)

Or maybe a ....  [drumroll] ....  A Game Changer Fudd Ruckers!

[thelakelander]

I must say, some of these comments are out of touch with what people are saying in the community and on the street. Miami, Tampa, Orlando and Nashville left Jax in the dust back when Hazouri was mayor. That ship sailed long before Y2K was a thing and the U2C is more likely going to make us a model for our peer communities of how to blow a half billion dollars in public money. As far as downtown goes, focus on getting the basics right. No more expensive and unproven gimmicks please.

Council member Randy DeFoor agreed it's a question of what's needed. She said residents don't feel that's the case regarding the JTA plan for replacing the current 2.5 mile downtown Skyway system with a 10-mile network.

The proposed conversion, which JTA calls the Ultimate Urban Circulator, would use rubber-tired autonomous vehicles to take passengers on the expanded system. JTA would use $379 million in gas tax revenue, or 40 percent of the total cost of the projects on the list, for conversion to the U2C.

"People think of the autonomous vehicles as a want, not a need," DeFoor said. "That's one of the problems we're up against, and we're also up against the trust issue."

The proposed extensions would go through Springfield to the UF Health medical campus, to TIAA Bank Stadium and the sports complex, to the Brooklyn and Riverside neighborhoods, and to San Marco.

City Council President Tommy Hazouri and council member Ju'Coby Pittman said the U2C and the other projects on the list would help Jacksonville stand out as a city on the move.

Hazouri said cities like Miami, Tampa, Orlando and Nashville "have left us behind and that should not happen."

"We have an opportunity to become a model for other cities that are our size," Pittman said.

Curry called the U2C an "innovative vision for transforming a dated transit system into a system of the future that will be critical for a vibrant, revitalized and much better connected downtown."

City Council member Joyce Morgan said that at a recent town hall meeting, she "didn't have total pushback" about raising the gas tax. "I just had pushback from how we make this work with the U2C," she said.

Council member Terrance Freeman said that while a gas tax is more acceptable than a property tax increase, he hasn't found that people "agree with a tax at all."

"People have asked a lot of questions and my gut tells me that if it went to them (in a referendum), this wouldn't be a very favorable vote," he said.

Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/04/30/council-tees-up-question-jacksonville-gas-tax-increase/7398922002/

[jaxlongtimer]

Of course I pointed out the cost issue; now they're claiming that the FTA has informed them that demolishing the Skyway would require payback of all $183 million with interest.

This galls me.  It doesn't even make sense.  Importantly, JTA has changed the payback number so many times its not funny.  Is it $45 million?  $183 million?  This is part of the reason they lack credibility when discussing anything involving the dollar sign.  Why don't they show us the contract with the Feds and we will figure it out for ourselves since its a moving target with them.  Expect the costs estimates for this project to swing just as wildly over time given their lack of aptitude for communicating costs.

Apparently some unnamed company coming to Jacksonville is going to have a U2C stop inside their lobby. Not sure how that's going to work with wet tires but they kept bringing it up.

LOL.  Any electric vehicle can run indoors usually.  It's certainly not an impressive feature given that Disney has been running an entire monorail train through a lobby for about 50 years already.

[marcuscnelson]

So with how completely out of hand all this is, and seeing the attitudes where they stand on council and among the public, should they pass the gas tax this month? If the project list won't change, so no funding for Emerald Trail or more funding for the Amtrak station, would it make more sense to off the U2C and hope to fight another day over the gas tax?

I'm struggling to see what the pathway is to resolve this otherwise.

[thelakelander]

I believe they'll find a way to shift some money to the Emerald Trail. I also believe the Skyway ask will be reduced.

[marcuscnelson]

I certainly hope, but if that doesn't happen, should the bill still pass?

[Tacachale]

I certainly hope, but if that doesn't happen, should the bill still pass?

Ronald Reagan once said, "if I can get 70 or 80 percent of what it is I'm trying to get, yes I'll take that and then continue to try to get the rest in the future." In this case it's 60%, which may be pushing it, but my gut is that we should still do it and fight the Skyway spending down the line.

[vicupstate]

I certainly hope, but if that doesn't happen, should the bill still pass?

Ronald Reagan once said, "if I can get 70 or 80 percent of what it is I'm trying to get, yes I'll take that and then continue to try to get the rest in the future." In this case it's 60%, which may be pushing it, but my gut is that we should still do it and fight the Skyway spending down the line.

If it loses, how soon can they try again? I know in my state certain referendum defeats require a 4 year period before a new vote can take place.
If there is not a 4 year or longer requirement, then I would vote No. They know if they change the list they will get a positive vote on the second try (unless the first vote was a landslide loss).  I say that because the gas tax will be maxed out and the Hotel and Sales Taxes are already maxed out IIRC.

You would never get a property tax increase of this size passed, so that leaves no future options that I see, particularly in a state as conservative as FL.

[jaxjags]

JTA Announces Installation of Gondola System From Sports District to Riverside

JTA will install an 8 passenger gondola system from Intuition Ale in the Sports District to the Cummer Museum in Riverside, with a mid station located at Bay and Jefferson. This will allow connection to the SkyWay at the Jefferson Station. This 2.3 long system will be similar to the recently announced (April 12, 2021) California Express Gondola to connect Squaw Valley with Alpine Meadows ski areas. That 2.2 mile, $66 million system over mountainous terrain will be designed, manufactured and installation commenced this summer. As the Jacksonville system will be similar in length and capacity to the California Express, design and engineering will be shorter and less expensive. Although a timeline is not complete for the CA system, it is anticipated that the JAX gondola can be completed in late 2023.

The JAX EXPRESS, as it will be called, will have the same capacity as the CA EXPRESS of 1400 passengers per hour each direction with a car departing every  25 seconds. The design will allow for adding cars to the system during busy times for a 2800 passengers per hour. Total transit time is estimated to be 16 mins.

JTA also said as part of this system they will upgrade the SkyWay and extend it to both UF Health and San Marco using the elevated configuration. Further a long term study for light rail north to the airport and south to SJTC area will be started. These lines will feed the SkyWay system at UF Health and San Marco.

The JAX EXPRESS/SKYWAY System is/will:

1. Use known technology that can be designed, engineered and installed today. No trial needed, so timeline is compressed.
2. Provide TOD opportunities at UF Health, Southside/San Marco, Riverside and Sports District.
3. Provide Jax with a true tourist attraction.
4. Costs are estimated to be a reasonable $25-30 million per mile.

Further details to be announced soon.


UPDATE: More Details From Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows, CA on the Gondola That Will Create North America's 3rd Largest Resort
SnowBrains | April 13, 2021 | Industry NewsIndustry News


The Base-to-Base Gondola.
Alterra Mountain Company yesterday (4/12/21) confirmed that the long-anticipated Squaw Valley to Alpine Meadows gondola would go ahead this summer. Connecting the two resorts will create the third-largest ski resort in North America and the second in the US (depending on how you work it out), behind Whistler Blackcomb, BC, and Park City, UT.

There has been talk of a gondola connecting the two bases ever since the two resorts, Squaw Valley and Alpine Meadows, merged in 2012. A blog post on the Squaw Alpine website offers more details on this $66-million project:

Squaw Valley Alpine Meadows is preparing for the construction of the base-to-base gondola connecting the two areas. This is a tremendously complex project, with four terminals spanning two ski areas, and our team will continue to work closely with Leitner-Poma on the planning and construction.

What Is the Hourly Capacity of the Gondola?

The gondola will have the capacity to transport 1,400 people per hour in 8-passenger cabins.

How Long Will It Take to Get Between the Two Mountains on the Gondola?

The gondola ride is anticipated to take 16 minutes.

"Under Alternative 4, the lift would still be configured as an eight-passenger gondola and would have a design capacity of approximately 1,400 persons per hour in each direction. Operational characteristics would be as described for Alternative 2. In total, the lift would be roughly 11,700 feet in length (based on plan length), of which approximately 2,300 feet (20 percent) would be sited on NFS lands, including the Alpine Meadows base terminal. A total of 33 towers would be installed along the gondola alignment under Alternative 4, with 28 on private land and five on NFS lands."

[marcuscnelson]

I certainly hope, but if that doesn't happen, should the bill still pass?

Ronald Reagan once said, "if I can get 70 or 80 percent of what it is I'm trying to get, yes I'll take that and then continue to try to get the rest in the future." In this case it's 60%, which may be pushing it, but my gut is that we should still do it and fight the Skyway spending down the line.

If it loses, how soon can they try again? I know in my state certain referendum defeats require a 4 year period before a new vote can take place.
If there is not a 4 year or longer requirement, then I would vote No. They know if they change the list they will get a positive vote on the second try (unless the first vote was a landslide loss).  I say that because the gas tax will be maxed out and the Hotel and Sales Taxes are already maxed out IIRC.

You would never get a property tax increase of this size passed, so that leaves no future options that I see, particularly in a state as conservative as FL.

The thing I worry about is seeing how much of the opposition to the tax is about the tax itself rather than about the projects on it, if this vote fails we might end up stuck because the prevailing assumption will be that people don't want a new tax rather than that people didn't want the tax to fully fund U2C.

[marcuscnelson]

JTA Announces Installation of Gondola System From Sports District to Riverside

JTA will install an 8 passenger gondola system from Intuition Ale in the Sports District to the Cummer Museum in Riverside, with a mid station located at Bay and Jefferson. This will allow connection to the SkyWay at the Jefferson Station. This 2.3 long system will be similar to the recently announced (April 12, 2021) California Express Gondola to connect Squaw Valley with Alpine Meadows ski areas. That 2.2 mile, $66 million system over mountainous terrain will be designed, manufactured and installation commenced this summer. As the Jacksonville system will be similar in length and capacity to the California Express, design and engineering will be shorter and less expensive. Although a timeline is not complete for the CA system, it is anticipated that the JAX gondola can be completed in late 2023.

The JAX EXPRESS, as it will be called, will have the same capacity as the CA EXPRESS of 1400 passengers per hour each direction with a car departing every  25 seconds. The design will allow for adding cars to the system during busy times for a 2800 passengers per hour. Total transit time is estimated to be 16 mins.

JTA also said as part of this system they will upgrade the SkyWay and extend it to both UF Health and San Marco using the elevated configuration. Further a long term study for light rail north to the airport and south to SJTC area will be started. These lines will feed the SkyWay system at UF Health and San Marco.

The JAX EXPRESS/SKYWAY System is/will:

1. Use known technology that can be designed, engineered and installed today. No trial needed, so timeline is compressed.
2. Provide TOD opportunities at UF Health, Southside/San Marco, Riverside and Sports District.
3. Provide Jax with a true tourist attraction.
4. Costs are estimated to be a reasonable $25-30 million per mile.

Further details to be announced soon.

Very funny.