Senate Considering $10B for Highway Removal

[jaxlongtimer]

In your last picture, I don't see where a wall could be built, due to how close both the local street and the lanes of MLK are to the fence (right-of-way) line.

I have actually seen noise walls with less than the margin of a standard shoulder or no shoulder at all (won't be missed on MLK since there isn't any now) where they were added in older areas so it may be possible on MLK.  They could also eliminate much or all of the green space in the middle of MLK to push the lanes inward and create added space on the outside to more easily accommodate a sound wall.  Road will be ugly as heck in that case so it's a trade off.  Lastly, they could eliminate, readjust or narrow the service roads to find more room.  Lake's idea of making it a local boulevard would be the nicest result if the traffic allowed for it.

Agree with Lake, it all comes down to priorities.  Developers "control" funding via their political donations.  It's why I tend to look for candidates they don't support and would have a hard time supporting Daniel Davis given his early support from same.

Found these interesting sound walls in the meantime:





There there is this idea from the Netherlands where the walls look like stained glass and double as solar panels:



Here is a variation on that theme:

[thelakelander]

I agree with you completely that we need to address problems caused by past discriminatory practices, even if it means "new" stuff is postponed or canceled.  About back-converting MLK, the railroad overpasses are an important consideration.  What is the truck traffic like along the section of MLK between I-95 and "the curve"?  FDOT spent a lot of money just a few years ago to rebuild that curve to make it easier for big rigs going to/from the Talleyrand Port; presumably because there is a lot of truck traffic.

I think a revamp could keep some of the recent bridges over the railroads in place while revamping other areas like 20th Street between Liberty and Kings or Haines between the 21st Street interchange and TIAA Bank Field.

[thelakelander]

In your last picture, I don't see where a wall could be built, due to how close both the local street and the lanes of MLK are to the fence (right-of-way) line.

Lake's idea of making it a local boulevard would be the nicest result if the traffic allowed for it.

Should be able to make it work. Would likely need to be six lanes in some stretches.

2019 AADT

86,500 - Blanding Blvd - I-295 to Wells Rd
80,000 - US 17/Park Ave - I-295 to Wells Rd
64,000 - Atlantic Blvd - St. Johns Bluff Rd to Kernan Blvd
63,000 - Blanding Blvd - Wells Rd to Kingsley Ave
62,000 - US 17/Park Ave - Wells Rd to Kingsley Ave
62,000 - San Jose Blvd - I-295 to Loretto Rd
59,500 - Beach Blvd - Hart Bridge Expressway to Southside Blvd
59,500 - MLK Parkway - I-95 to US 17
51,500 - Arlington Expressway - Mathews Bridge to A. Philip Randolph Blvd
50,000 - MLK Parkway - US 17 to E 8th St
47,500 - Arlington Expressway - A. Philip Randolph Blvd to Liberty St
46,000 - MLK Parkway - E 8th St to Mathews Bridge
31,000 - MLK Parkway - Kings Road to I-95

It could be possible to remake both MLK Parkway and the Arlington Expressway between the Mathews Bridge and Liberty Street. That would certainly be a boost to the viability of the Eastside, efforts to alleviate the blockage of Hogans Creek and tie the Emerald Trail from Springfield to the Shipyards. The busiest stretch is between I-95 and 21st Street, which is comparable to Beach Blvd and less than San Jose Blvd in Mandarin. Can't imagine having all those interchanges between I-95 and 21st Street would be allowed if designed to today's standards.

[bl8jaxnative]

If one wants to improve the lives of the children growing up on the Eastside, you have to end the failed public schooling system they're stuck with.   20%, 50, 70% of students graduating from some Jacksonville high schools that functionally illiterate or that can't do basic algebra.  It's been a disaster for generations.

If one want to appease the urban elite and their aself hte for the cars they drive for 10,000 of miles every year, remove MLK freeway.

[marcuscnelson]

Given that we just passed a sales tax increase dedicated to education, and that our state government has been more concerned about football games than quality education, what exactly are you looking for DCPS to do right now?

[thelakelander]

If one wants to improve the lives of the children growing up on the Eastside, you have to end the failed public schooling system they're stuck with.   20%, 50, 70% of students graduating from some Jacksonville high schools that functionally illiterate or that can't do basic algebra.  It's been a disaster for generations.

If one want to appease the urban elite and their aself hte for the cars they drive for 10,000 of miles every year, remove MLK freeway.

The urban core has a ton of systemic discriminatory issues and policies that need to be changed. Public education is one of them but not the only. Just as important to schooling is the environment people grow in and what they are subjected to outside of the walls of school. When we know better, we should strive to do better. That means correcting the wrongs of the past, even when it comes to public infrastructure.

[Charles Hunter]

bl8 - while your comment about education is not untrue, completely different pots of money. We could stop spending any dollars on roads and - under current funding laws - not a dime could go schools.

lake - I looked at the Florida on-line traffic counts, and it looks like MLK has about 10% - 11% trucks, much higher than some of the other roads on that list (less than 5%).  This doesn't make it un-doable, but the New MLK Boulevard (or maybe a true "Parkway") would have to limit the number of full intersections - perhaps to Main, Liberty, keep the new interchange to the Port, 8th, and 1st?  The other side streets could be right turn only.

[thelakelander]

With the spacing of Boulevard and Pearl, and their importance to neighborhood connectivity, it would likely make sense to keep the stretch between I-95 and 21st Street as limited access and make safety improvements where necessary.

[tufsu1]

If one wants to improve the lives of the children growing up on the Eastside, you have to end the failed public schooling system they're stuck with.   20%, 50, 70% of students graduating from some Jacksonville high schools that functionally illiterate or that can't do basic algebra.  It's been a disaster for generations.

If one want to appease the urban elite and their aself hte for the cars they drive for 10,000 of miles every year, remove MLK freeway.

Thanks for the completely useless post

[Transman]

A few items about interstate construction.  Ike wanted to route all of the traffic around the beltways around the cities and was not happy when he got outmaneuvered by local politicians.  You can search google for - Yellow Book.  Quote about it below.

Good Article Link - https://www.enotrans.org/article/federal-highway-policy-under-president-eisenhower-1957-1961/


"At the meeting, Eisenhower said he had never seen the Yellow Book of urban Interstate maps before, and the subsequent discussion of the urban Interstate extensions is so remarkable it needs to be quoted at length (again, from Bragdon's recollection):

The President went on to say that the staff had also advised him that in the course of the legislation through the Congress, the point had been made that cities were to get adequate consideration on a 'per person' basis in view of the taxes they paid; in fact, that they were to get more consideration since they paid much more in taxes per person and in total than persons in rural areas.

The President added that this was what the Congress had been told, and that he was given to understand that this, together with the descriptions in the Yellow Book which they had before them when considering the legislation, were the prime reasons the Congress passed the Interstate Highway Act. In other words, the Yellow Book depicting routes in cities had sold the program in Congress...

"He went on to say that the matter of running Interstate routes through the congested parts of the cities was entirely against his original concept and wishes; that he never anticipated that the program would turn out this way. He pointed out that when the Clay Committee Report was rendered, he had studied it carefully, and that he was certainly not aware of any concept of using the program to build up an extensive intra-city route network as part of the program he sponsored. He added that those who had not advised him that such was being done, and those who had steered the program in such a direction, had not followed his wishes.[31]

Bragdon said that at the end of the April 1960 meeting, Eisenhower "reiterated his disappointment over the way the program had been developed against his wishes, and that it had reached the point where his hands were virtually tied."[32]

[jaxlongtimer]

^ Great post and very interesting.  Wonder what American cities would be like if Ike got his way.  Ironic that the only major City (that I know of) that mostly followed Ike's vision was DC.  Maybe it was out of respect to him since it was right under his nose ?

[Transman]

You have to enjoy the irony of the situation.  In the 1950s locals wanted to draw more people downtown and make it easier to shop in city centers.  The opposite occurred with the suburbs springing up so people didn't have to go downtown to shop.  Parking always an issue downtown costs money versus strip malls with free parking.  We should let traffic get worse and more people will move back downtown to be centrally located.  The highway removal idea is interesting and would make a great park system in the cities.  Commuting now doable with e-bikes.  Class 3 bikes that can go 28mph could move people better in some ways. 

[BridgeTroll]

A billion dollars. I can't believe it.

Imagine all the things you could spend a billion dollars on. The sheer level of transit connectivity you could build with a billion dollars. And we're going to spend it on more lanes on the interstate. And no one is going to blink an eye. Just... incredible.

Yeah... it really doesn't matter what the billions of dollars are spent on... someone ALWAYS has better uses for it.  Example:  The Perseverance Mars Rover mission... 2.5 billion...

[marcuscnelson]

You have to enjoy the irony of the situation.  In the 1950s locals wanted to draw more people downtown and make it easier to shop in city centers.  The opposite occurred with the suburbs springing up so people didn't have to go downtown to shop.  Parking always an issue downtown costs money versus strip malls with free parking.  We should let traffic get worse and more people will move back downtown to be centrally located.  The highway removal idea is interesting and would make a great park system in the cities.  Commuting now doable with e-bikes.  Class 3 bikes that can go 28mph could move people better in some ways.

I'm not sure I buy that being the premise. Maybe at the very beginning, but once it became clear the development opportunity they enabled, and white flight became easily possible, that picked up the ball pretty quickly to motivate highway construction. And later on we even got things like parking minimums to enforce the way of life they demanded.

Just "letting" traffic get worse seems pretty hard to do. Eventually people do demand that something be done. The problem is, that something is almost always in the form of highway widening. Austin's in a pretty big fight right now about TxDOT wanting to take I-35 from twelve lanes to twenty. Jacksonville's planned I-95 widenings take us to where Austin is now. But more importantly, while it's not like people couldn't commute with e-bikes, we probably need to ask how realistic an option that is, especially for someone coming from Mandarin or E-Town. Not everyone is necessarily going to a company based downtown. A lot of companies are on Southside, or JTB, and roads like that. And I realize that replacing I-95 with nothing isn't really an option. You'd need to introduce some sort of mass transit system to the FEC/CSX corridor, and/or US-1 to make up for the number of people still needing to move around. And the political capital to ignore the people screaming about their highways and freedom. Developers used to only demanding highways are going to be upset about not having that option, and will ensure that anyone at the state or local level promising to bring them back are well-funded. It's very much an uphill battle, not that it wouldn't be worth it.

[jaxlongtimer]

^ I have always wondered if it would be feasible to put people in electric autonomous and community shared "mini-vehicles" that have minimal storage (e.g a load of groceries or so) and engine sizes.  This would also be step up from e-bikes or other modes that expose users to the elements and don't offer the comforts of A/C, a radio and/or screen along with the ability to travel faster and further.  They would be pre-positioned using usage algorithms so one could be called up in 15 minutes or less. 

Different sized vehicles would be ordered based on the number of people to be transported so you only get what you need.  Likewise, if a user occasionally needed more space for transporting personal effects or other "freight," a different type of such vehicle could be ordered.

Imagine all the space on our highways occupied by one person SUV's and pickups carrying nothing more than their cell phones.  And, with autonomous vehicles, cars could travel in tighter configurations freeing up more space.  If taken to the highest level, we might not even need traffic lights (the ultimate traffic congester) so traffic could be moving at all times in the most efficient manner.

Such a system would enable smaller roads and remove most parking lot acreage and garages freeing up a huge amount of land for redevelopment.  It would also provide the flexibility to go where and when you want to that people don't get with mass transit vehicles.  It would be the next best thing to a Jetson-style flying car.