Senate Considering $10B for Highway Removal

[marcuscnelson]

Cities might soon get federal money to tear down inner-city highways that federal dollars built in the first place — and use that money to reinvest in communities of color that those highways destroyed.

Shortly before the holiday recess, then-Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer and a coalition of 25 Democratic senators introduced a $435 billion economic justice bill called S5065 that included a $10-billion pilot program aimed at helping communities tear down urban highways, and rebuild the surrounding neighborhoods with the needs of underserved communities in mind.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2021/01/11/senate-considering-10b-highway-removal-bill/

It seems there are a lot of places in Jacksonville that could perhaps benefit from this, or a state version of it. The Arlington Expressway immediately comes to mind. The remaining Hart Bridge ramps. The Main Street bridge ramps.

[Charles Hunter]

Hmmm ... maybe my post was removed to improve the community? (Or, I forgot to hit "Post")

To recap - I can see this program applying to not only the Arlington Expressway but also the Martin Luther King, Jr. Parkway.  Not so sure about the Hart Expressway Ramps, although removing the remaining stubs makes sense, just not from this program.  The North Florida TPO did a study on the Arlington Expressway a few years ago (however, it was more than 3 years ago, so isn't on their website).

Regarding the Main Street Bridge ramps, I see no applicability to those on the north end of the bridge. The Southbank elevated section is a possibility, if the surrounding area would meet the bill's definition of 'neighborhood' or 'community'.

[Steve]

Interesting on multiple fronts.

I definitely see Arlington Expressway fitting the bill to a degree. The interesting thing is that a lot of the neighborhood sort of grew up around the expressway vs. the expressway coming in and destroying the neighborhood (i.e. MLK).

Now what's interesting about MLK is while it definitely hurt the neighborhood, the road is used really extensively by trucks because of the development of the port, particularly the section from I-95 to the port. Realistically, you can't just remove the road and put the historic street grid back into place. Obviously you can bring it back to grade and eliminate the freeway part of it, though now you have a ton of trucks on surface streets - I suppose that's better but even with great road design I'm not sure that makes it pedestrian friendly. In short I feel like you have to consider it almost like 3 roads: New Kings to I-95, I-95 to the curve at Haines Street, and the curve to the Stadium/Hart Bridge.

Other places I could see this is the entire southbank save for I-95 (thought you might have a hard time selling the "neighborhood"), and potentially Roosevelt from Edgewood to I-10.

Putting aside I-95 and I-10 itself I think those are the candidates here.

[marcuscnelson]

Hmmm ... maybe my post was removed to improve the community? (Or, I forgot to hit "Post")

I didn't see another thread about this, if there was one, my bad.

The North Florida TPO did a study on the Arlington Expressway a few years ago (however, it was more than 3 years ago, so isn't on their website).

Here's an article from this site about it. I was brainstorming about what redeveloping Arlington would look like a little while ago and came across it. One thought that came to mind was the possibility of LRT (or tram/BRT/etc) in the median, perhaps connecting JU to JWB's College Park and the (hopefully) redeveloped Regency Square. Going with perhaps a slightly narrower median than 98 feet (I don't see people using a park slapped in the median of a big road like that) could be room for such a line. And if the federal dollars ever appear to replace the Matthews, it could be extended into Downtown. Send it down State or Union and terminate at the Rosa Parks station.

The Southbank elevated section is a possibility, if the surrounding area would meet the bill's definition of 'neighborhood' or 'community'.

I was thinking Southbank, no idea what the clearance could be for the Northbank ramps. I'm not sure a ramp could hit Independent that steeply. Not to mention they're already getting rid of the Independent Drive on-ramp this year.

[thelakelander]

I could see just about every expressway built in the 50s and 60s outside of I-10 and I-95 being potentially eligible. MLK Parkway, the Arlington Expressway (especially the Eastside section), the ramps that connect the Hart Bridge to MLK Parkway and the little US 17 stub between Murray Hill/Lackawanna and Riverside. MLK would be transformational. That thing has negatively impacted just about every established neighborhood east, north and northwest of Downtown.

[marcuscnelson]

Other places I could see this is the entire southbank save for I-95 (thought you might have a hard time selling the "neighborhood"), and potentially Roosevelt from Edgewood to I-10.

Putting aside I-95 and I-10 itself I think those are the candidates here.

Besides the Main Street Bridge on the Southside, it's just the Acosta ramp at that point, right? I could see leaving that part alone. (Unless a realistic Skyway replacement gives us the chance to redo part of the bridge anyway. )

Roosevelt is definitely a good potential choice. Looking at a map, I wonder what the take would be on the section from the Hart to MLK parkway, how that is negotiated without the Matthews ramps in the mix. And, I see that there's a big interchange that if replaced with surface streets could provide a lot of new development space north of the stadium.

[jaxlongtimer]

To go to an extreme, we could do like DC and remove I-95, the ultimate urban core destroyer, from the urban core and force all interstate traffic around our beltway !

[marcuscnelson]

Joke received, but to humor it for a moment. We're definitely not the nation's capital. DC has a substantial metro system to get people in and around their urban core. Perhaps I'm unimaginative, but I doubt we'd be willing to touch it after blowing half a billion dollars and more on the downtown approach on the Southbank, the Fuller Warren widening, and now the I-10 widening. Removing the portion of I-95 between I-10 and MLK Parkway could be very interesting in terms of reconnecting historic black neighborhoods to Downtown, if we were inclined to do so (and had adequate plans to make up for it with transit connectivity).

Now, if you were saying to actually copy DC and take out all of I-95 within the I-295 beltway, we'd be cooking with gas. Cut off the south end at maybe Phillips Hwy vs 295 itself, make Phillips the primary corridor through the Southside (the pressure to widen it vs building a transit corridor would be immense), redo the connection to the Fuller Warren, reconnect all of the surface streets the highway cut off. The infill opportunity would be incredible.

[thelakelander]

DC isn't immune. The historic Black areas of have I-295, I-395, and I-695 slicing through them. It will be interesting to see what cities would be interested. I can see discussion to take out some highways drawing local opposition.

[jaxlongtimer]

Joke received, but to humor it for a moment. We're definitely not the nation's capital. DC has a substantial metro system to get people in and around their urban core.

The DC beltway predates the Metro by decades.  I beleive I-95 didn't run through DC due to well connected opposition mostly.  No doubt, the occupants at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and "workers" on Capitol Hill probably didn't want the traffic in their backyards .  They had more pull than the urban core areas in the rest of the country since they were the ones funding the interstate system to begin with.

Developers and their elected friends in Maryland and Virginia were probably more than happy to facilitate the traffic to build out their sprawling suburbs.

[Steve]

DC isn't immune. The historic Black areas of have I-295, I-395, and I-695 slicing through them. It will be interesting to see what cities would be interested. I can see discussion to take out some highways drawing local opposition.

This brings up a point - in many cities the highways extend to the White suburbs where they connect people from the burbs, through Black neighborhoods, to city centers. Get rid of the highway and you're affecting the suburbs, not the core.

[marcuscnelson]

DC isn't immune. The historic Black areas of have I-295, I-395, and I-695 slicing through them. It will be interesting to see what cities would be interested. I can see discussion to take out some highways drawing local opposition.

I meant that in terms of the nation's capital being more likely to make that level of investment in public transit and highway removal. I am well aware of the many residents and communities that have no federal representation. Although it seems DC was more a case of the highway being canceled in the first place than removing it.

But yeah, absolutely. I imagine suburbanites and sprawl-focused developers being pissed at the concept of cutting off their Silk Road.

Joke received, but to humor it for a moment. We're definitely not the nation's capital. DC has a substantial metro system to get people in and around their urban core.

The DC beltway predates the Metro by decades.  I beleive I-95 didn't run through DC due to well connected opposition mostly.  No doubt, the occupants at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and "workers" on Capitol Hill probably didn't want the traffic in their backyards .  They had more pull than the urban core areas in the rest of the country since they were the ones funding the interstate system to begin with.

Developers and their elected friends in Maryland and Virginia were probably more than happy to facilitate the traffic to build out their sprawling suburbs.

Not by that much, actually. You can maybe call it two decades if you go from when the Beltway was formally approved in 1955 to when the Metro opened in 1976. WMATA was formed in 1966, 2 years after the Beltway's completion and 11 after its approval. And the law to develop a metro was passed before the initial portions of the Beltway were even completed.

[marcuscnelson]

Thought I'd play around and toss together a map of the ideas I've seen here.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1g7RwdC1TX-apj-vitS48Heues4WYImgv&usp=sharing

[thelakelander]

DC isn't immune. The historic Black areas of have I-295, I-395, and I-695 slicing through them. It will be interesting to see what cities would be interested. I can see discussion to take out some highways drawing local opposition.

I meant that in terms of the nation's capital being more likely to make that level of investment in public transit and highway removal. I am well aware of the many residents and communities that have no federal representation.

No problem! I posted that in response to Jaxlongtimer's post:

To go to an extreme, we could do like DC and remove I-95, the ultimate urban core destroyer, from the urban core and force all interstate traffic around our beltway !

Although it seems DC was more a case of the highway being canceled in the first place than removing it.

It appears quite a few proposed for Jax were canceled as well. At one time the Arlington Expressway was proposed to go straight down State & Union to connect to I-95. The Hart Bridge Expressway abruptly ends at Beach Boulevard because the rest of it was canceled due to community opposition. Same goes for a bridge that would have connected JTB with 103rd Street. Riverside stopped one as well. Communities with political influence were able to get these projects stopped while the disenfranchised were paved over unfortunately.

[Charles Hunter]

Don't forget the proposed bridge from the (then) 20th Street Xway to a point somewhere between Fort Caroline and Merrill Roads, and continue out to the Wonderwood Connector.  And speaking of the Wonderwood Connector - it was originally proposed as a limited-access expressway. 

Regarding the Hart Expressway's termination at Beach Boulevard, instead of continuing on the diagonal to what is now JTB around UNF - it was community opposition and that of the businesses along Beach Boulevard and in the Jax Beach CBD that didn't want all the traffic shifted to Ponte Vedra.

That proposed Riverside expressway and bridge to San Marco was a catalyst in the formation of Riverside-Avondale Preservation.