Railroad to JIA Ever Coming?

[jaxlongtimer]

^Cecil already has abandoned railroad ROW. Right now, there's no reason to put rail on it. In the future, if a company built near Cecil that would need rail access, they could get it.

The City has always had big dreams about an auto or aircraft manufacturing plant at Cecil.  Get that and that line will probably be back on the table faster than you can say "Lot J."

[marcuscnelson]

From my recollection, I think the JIA rail loop has been shelved because CSX was not interested in paying for it. The primary purpose was to expedite freight from JaxPort to the intermodal transfer centers on the westside - and would minimize freight trains through Springfield and other urban core neighborhoods.   

Thanks, tufsu1, I forgot what happened after that study. So, to those hoping the ROW will be preserved - very likely not going to happen. Perhaps with a potentially more rail-friendly administration in DC, there will be funding that would decrease the financial burden on any railroad company. Of course, if there's public money building it, the line should be available to all RRs.

There being a rail-friendly administration in DC doesn't mean anything if there isn't a rail-friendly administration here, though. They're not going to give us money if we don't ask for it. Of course, that isn't very helpful when our next chance to get rail-friendly leadership is in the second half of the Biden presidency, after a midterm that could go either way for Democrats.

A shame, too, because getting freight out of Springfield and the urban core means the opportunity to use those tracks for light rail instead.

^Cecil already has abandoned railroad ROW. Right now, there's no reason to put rail on it. In the future, if a company built near Cecil that would need rail access, they could get it.

The City has always had big dreams about an auto or aircraft manufacturing plant at Cecil.  Get that and that line will probably be back on the table faster than you can say "Lot J."

Oof. For whatever reason none of the car manufacturers appear to have any interest in Florida. Even Tesla chose Texas instead. I don't know if Tallahassee just hasn't put in the effort to invite said companies or if we're not as good at it as the other states.

If anything, I'd think a rail equipment/rolling stock manufacturer would be a better bet than auto or aircraft. Miami managed to snag Hitachi Rail, who they chose for replacement MetroRail cars. Siemens is in California, Stadler in Utah, Talgo in Wisconsin. To dream big for a minute, we could probably just copy that strategy - convince a European rolling stock company to build a factory at Cecil in exchange for using that company's rolling stock in a passenger rail service, be it a streetcar replacement for the Skyway or a light/commuter rail. The biggest problem is that it would likely require support from Tallahassee, and I don't know if our legislative delegation has that kind of pull.

[thelakelander]

From my recollection, I think the JIA rail loop has been shelved because CSX was not interested in paying for it. The primary purpose was to expedite freight from JaxPort to the intermodal transfer centers on the westside - and would minimize freight trains through Springfield and other urban core neighborhoods.   

Thanks, tufsu1, I forgot what happened after that study. So, to those hoping the ROW will be preserved - very likely not going to happen. Perhaps with a potentially more rail-friendly administration in DC, there will be funding that would decrease the financial burden on any railroad company. Of course, if there's public money building it, the line should be available to all RRs.

There being a rail-friendly administration in DC doesn't mean anything if there isn't a rail-friendly administration here, though. They're not going to give us money if we don't ask for it. Of course, that isn't very helpful when our next chance to get rail-friendly leadership is in the second half of the Biden presidency, after a midterm that could go either way for Democrats.

A shame, too, because getting freight out of Springfield and the urban core means the opportunity to use those tracks for light rail instead.

A big question that would need to be answered would be....why would CSX or any other railroad company want to build a rail line to bypass Springfield or move freight out of Jaxport quicker? They tend to have no problem paying for projects they deem as a priority. In this case, it seems like the biggest benefit of an airport line would be for the public locally. That means, it should bare the responsibility of paying to build it, if truly a priority.

^Cecil already has abandoned railroad ROW. Right now, there's no reason to put rail on it. In the future, if a company built near Cecil that would need rail access, they could get it.

The City has always had big dreams about an auto or aircraft manufacturing plant at Cecil.  Get that and that line will probably be back on the table faster than you can say "Lot J."

Oof. For whatever reason none of the car manufacturers appear to have any interest in Florida. Even Tesla chose Texas instead. I don't know if Tallahassee just hasn't put in the effort to invite said companies or if we're not as good at it as the other states.

If anything, I'd think a rail equipment/rolling stock manufacturer would be a better bet than auto or aircraft. Miami managed to snag Hitachi Rail, who they chose for replacement MetroRail cars. Siemens is in California, Stadler in Utah, Talgo in Wisconsin. To dream big for a minute, we could probably just copy that strategy - convince a European rolling stock company to build a factory at Cecil in exchange for using that company's rolling stock in a passenger rail service, be it a streetcar replacement for the Skyway or a light/commuter rail. The biggest problem is that it would likely require support from Tallahassee, and I don't know if our legislative delegation has that kind of pull.

Florida generally loses because it can't compete with the other Southern states for auto assembly plants from an incentives perspective. Jax has a number of rail facilities....primarily freight. A few include TTX near Honeymoon Yard, Fruit Growers Express near Moncrief Yard, and GBW Rail Car Services off the NS line in NW Jax. My guess would be if a new facility came in, they'd pick another site (closer to existing rail infrastructure) other than Cecil. For example, the TTX facility takes up a portion of Honeymoon Yard, since much of the track infrastructure was no longer needed after the train station closed. We have quite a few old yards like the Springfield, West Jax, Export Yard, etc. that would be suitable for a similar type of facility if the opportunity arose.

[jaxlongtimer]

^ Probably our best shot at Cecil is with aircraft manufacturing, particularly for the military, or something space related.  I thought some aircraft components/pre-assemblies were shipped by rail to Boeing's plant in Charleston but looking at Google maps and aerials, I don't see a rail siding to their plant although there is a rail line nearby.  So, maybe rail isn't a need, after all, for that.

[acme54321]

^ Probably our best shot at Cecil is with aircraft manufacturing, particularly for the military, or something space related.  I thought some aircraft components/pre-assemblies were shipped by rail to Boeing's plant in Charleston but looking at Google maps and aerials, I don't see a rail siding to their plant although there is a rail line nearby.  So, maybe rail isn't a need, after all, for that.

They ship 737 fuselages from Wichita to Seattle by which is probably what you are thinking.  I believe the Charleston plant is producing the 787.

[jaxlongtimer]

^ Probably our best shot at Cecil is with aircraft manufacturing, particularly for the military, or something space related.  I thought some aircraft components/pre-assemblies were shipped by rail to Boeing's plant in Charleston but looking at Google maps and aerials, I don't see a rail siding to their plant although there is a rail line nearby.  So, maybe rail isn't a need, after all, for that.

They ship 737 fuselages from Wichita to Seattle by which is probably what you are thinking.  I believe the Charleston plant is producing the 787.

Yes, that's it.  I just did a Google query and found out they fly the fuselages, etc. to the Charleston airport where the Boeing 787 plant is located:

https://simpleflying.com/boeing-787-10-charleston/

For reference, a Boeing 787 Dreamliner can take anywhere from 25-40 days to build, depending on the timing of part deliveries. Boeing sources parts in Italy, Japan, and in Charleston itself. To ensure that components can get to where they need to be, Boeing utilizes a fleet of Boeing Dreamlifter aircraft to move fuselages and other parts around (Boeing stations two of these cargo planes in South Carolina).

[jaxlongtimer]

^ Speaking of Boeing, Atlas Air just ordered the last four 747's to ever be built with final delivery in 2022.  These will all be cargo planes.

https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-plans-end-for-747-atlas-air-placing-final-order-2021-1

Boeing just announced the definitive end of the legendary 747 as cargo giant Atlas Air places an order for the final 4 planes

* Atlas Air on Tuesday announced a four-aircraft order for the Boeing 747-8F, the largest mass-produced freighter from the American aircraft manufacturer.

* Boeing said that these will be the last 747 ever built as the program comes to a close after a half-century.

* Demand for cargo planes has skyrocketed during the pandemic and the 747 provided the one thing most freighters could not with its nose loading door.

[/list]

[marcuscnelson]

Damn, the end of an era.

In terms of getting back on topic:

There being a rail-friendly administration in DC doesn't mean anything if there isn't a rail-friendly administration here, though. They're not going to give us money if we don't ask for it. Of course, that isn't very helpful when our next chance to get rail-friendly leadership is in the second half of the Biden presidency, after a midterm that could go either way for Democrats.

A shame, too, because getting freight out of Springfield and the urban core means the opportunity to use those tracks for light rail instead.

A big question that would need to be answered would be....why would CSX or any other railroad company want to build a rail line to bypass Springfield or move freight out of Jaxport quicker? They tend to have no problem paying for projects they deem as a priority. In this case, it seems like the biggest benefit of an airport line would be for the public locally. That means, it should bare the responsibility of paying to build it, if truly a priority.

That's reasonable, I guess. Challenge becomes convincing all three levels of government that this is needed, somewhat soon, rather than another lane on I-95 or whatever. As beneficial as a passenger connection would be, that's probably longer down the road still, but at least getting the ROW and the freight out of downtown is a big benefit.

[acme54321]

Damn, the end of an era.

In terms of getting back on topic:

There being a rail-friendly administration in DC doesn't mean anything if there isn't a rail-friendly administration here, though. They're not going to give us money if we don't ask for it. Of course, that isn't very helpful when our next chance to get rail-friendly leadership is in the second half of the Biden presidency, after a midterm that could go either way for Democrats.

A shame, too, because getting freight out of Springfield and the urban core means the opportunity to use those tracks for light rail instead.

A big question that would need to be answered would be....why would CSX or any other railroad company want to build a rail line to bypass Springfield or move freight out of Jaxport quicker? They tend to have no problem paying for projects they deem as a priority. In this case, it seems like the biggest benefit of an airport line would be for the public locally. That means, it should bare the responsibility of paying to build it, if truly a priority.

That's reasonable, I guess. Challenge becomes convincing all three levels of government that this is needed, somewhat soon, rather than another lane on I-95 or whatever. As beneficial as a passenger connection would be, that's probably longer down the road still, but at least getting the ROW and the freight out of downtown is a big benefit.

Is it really needed, somewhat soon?  That is the real question.  I think the overwhelming answer is going to be no due to the investment costs involved.

[thelakelander]

^It doesn't sound like it is. At least from the railroad's perspective.

[marcuscnelson]

The urgency is mostly about these earlier comments:

No problem!

Presumably, if the ultimate goal was to enable passenger rail access, the line would need to follow S2 and S1 or M5, with an additional spur that gets as close as possible to the terminal before a people mover or something has to take over.

Which brings us to the problem. $200 million just builds the line for freight, assuming that there aren't any unexpected cost increases or complications. It doesn't include the cost of the additional spur to the airport itself, the rail terminal (+ either very long walkway to the airport or people mover), the potential cost of double-tracking part of the line (so there's room for both passenger/commuter trains and freight). There has to actually be a commuter rail service linking the airport and anywhere else.

This isn't to say that we shouldn't build the line period. But even if shovels were in the ground tomorrow we'd be a long way from making it possible for people to travel from the airport anywhere without a car or perhaps bus.

If the line were built for freight, it would at least preserve the possibility of adding a passenger component later.  The biggest issue is nothing happens now to reserve r-o-w and its impossible to feasibly do anything in the future.  The Northside is going through a growth spurt and people aren't going to hold back development that would interfere with this concept if there aren't concrete plans or reservations.

I have said it before:  Jacksonville leaders have no long term vision or plans.  It's why we ping pong among poorly conceived developer proposals rather than take charge of making this the best city it can be with a bit more thoughtfulness and civic altruism.

[bl8jaxnative]

I think years ago there was a thread on this but it's hard to find with no search options for the threads that I can find.  So starting a new one  .

At one time, there were plans to lay track to JIA (for freight/passengers?).  Haven't heard anything in a long time.  Anyone have updates on that project, if it still exists.  Is right of way at least secured?

Started thinking again about this after the discussion of Brightline going to Orlando's airport.

The planes come and go from JAX, not JIA.  I'd recomend we follow their lead.

[bl8jaxnative]

Oof. For whatever reason none of the car manufacturers appear to have any interest in Florida.

Incentives help very, very much alot.  Nevertheless, the primary reason is location.  The further you go into Florida, the further from suppliers an assembly plant is.  If an auto plant were to ever be built in Florida, it would most likely be in the panhandle or JAX for those reasons.   




If anything, I'd think a rail equipment/rolling stock manufacturer would be a better bet than auto or aircraft. Miami managed to snag Hitachi Rail, who they chose for replacement MetroRail cars. Siemens is in California, Stadler in Utah, Talgo in Wisconsin. To dream big for a minute, we could probably just copy that strategy - convince a European rolling stock company to build a factory at Cecil in exchange for using that company's rolling stock in a passenger rail service, be it a streetcar replacement for the Skyway or a light/commuter rail. The biggest problem is that it would likely require support from Tallahassee, and I don't know if our legislative delegation has that kind of pull.
[/quote]

Florida generally loses because it can't compete with the other Southern states for auto assembly plants from an incentives perspective. Jax has a number of rail facilities....primarily freight. A few include TTX near Honeymoon Yard, Fruit Growers Express near Moncrief Yard, and GBW Rail Car Services off the NS line in NW Jax. My guess would be if a new facility came in, they'd pick another site (closer to existing rail infrastructure) other than Cecil. For example, the TTX facility takes up a portion of Honeymoon Yard, since much of the track infrastructure was no longer needed after the train station closed. We have quite a few old yards like the Springfield, West Jax, Export Yard, etc. that would be suitable for a similar type of facility if the opportunity arose.
[/quote]

[jaxlongtimer]

No problem!

Presumably, if the ultimate goal was to enable passenger rail access, the line would need to follow S2 and S1 or M5, with an additional spur that gets as close as possible to the terminal before a people mover or something has to take over.

Which brings us to the problem. $200 million just builds the line for freight, assuming that there aren't any unexpected cost increases or complications. It doesn't include the cost of the additional spur to the airport itself, the rail terminal (+ either very long walkway to the airport or people mover), the potential cost of double-tracking part of the line (so there's room for both passenger/commuter trains and freight). There has to actually be a commuter rail service linking the airport and anywhere else.

This isn't to say that we shouldn't build the line period. But even if shovels were in the ground tomorrow we'd be a long way from making it possible for people to travel from the airport anywhere without a car or perhaps bus.

If the line were built for freight, it would at least preserve the possibility of adding a passenger component later.  The biggest issue is nothing happens now to reserve r-o-w and its impossible to feasibly do anything in the future.  The Northside is going through a growth spurt and people aren't going to hold back development that would interfere with this concept if there aren't concrete plans or reservations.

I have said it before:  Jacksonville leaders have no long term vision or plans.  It's why we ping pong among poorly conceived developer proposals rather than take charge of making this the best city it can be with a bit more thoughtfulness and civic altruism.

Looks like my prediction is coming true - no surprise.  Area for a possible railroad connection to JIA is being slated for thousands of houses likely insuring this idea never sees the light of day again.  JPA hasn't pursued it one bit.   I would say it's a good possibility this rail line could rival the river dredging in value-add to our port but we will never know for sure now.  I guess the JAA doesn't see the value of connecting rail to the airport one day either.  One might think intermodal for freight (rail-air-truck-sea) might be super attractive to those optimizing logistics.  No vision for the long term, typical.

Timberland stretching over thousands of acres in a rural part of the Northside emerged as the top choice in a 2016 study for the possible route of a brand-new freight rail connection for moving cargo from Jacksonville's port.

That expanse of forest, interspersed with pockets of cleared land where cattle roam, still looks the same as it did then. It's in a part of Jacksonville where residents say they have "room to breathe," where deer sightings are commonplace and the biggest retail operation is a pick-your-own blueberry farm.

But the rail study has faded away like a train that rumbles by and then disappears around the bend, leaving silence in its wake.

The pendelum has swung firmly from industrial to residential in plans that developers are bringing to City Hall. Thousands of new residents could move into the area in the coming years, a shift that would make even brainstorming about a rail line less politically viable in the future....

...Five years ago, that open land made it the top choice when the freight study looked at where to build a possible rail line.

The driving force behind the study was the TraPac terminal that opened just east of the Dames Point bridge in 2009, linking Jacksonville to Asian trade routes for the first time.

JaxPort still has an interest in a new rail line. Cargo unloaded at the TraPac terminal and nearby Blount Island terminal that is shipped by rail goes on a journey through Jacksonville where railroad crossings in existing neighborhoods make it a time-consuming trip in an industry where time is money.

"Any effort to enhance Northeast Florida's rail connectivity and increase the efficiencies of area roadways would benefit JAXPORT and the region's trade and transportation community," JaxPort spokeswoman Chelsea Kavanagh said.

The North Florida Transportation Organization, which coordinates transportation spending in the region, launched a study in 2012 of potential corridors that would give a faster, more direct connection.

A report issued in 2016 narrowed the options to a route that would run from the rail line along Main Street by heading east over to tie in with the existing rail line that heads north along Old Kings Road.

That proposed route hugged the northern side of Jacksonville International Airport and then dipped in a southeast direction. The estimated cost was $151 million to $200 million, a figure that included building overpasses at some roads including Interstate 95 so a train wouldn't stop car traffic.

But the state has no money in its five-year transportation spending plan for it. JaxPort isn't in talks with either CSX or Norfolk Southern about a new rail line. The 2016 report said in its conclusion that building a rail line would need support from "rail carriers and operators" for such a long-term project.

With the rail line study going nowhere, it wasn't even a dotted line on the map of the 1,097 acre Thomas Creek Regional Activity Center site that City Council recently favored for a major land use amendment.

"That's going to be overwhelmingly residential with some neighborhood-serving  commercial," said Wyman Duggan, an attorney representing the developer. "There's no plan for a rail line going through there."...

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/09/24/idea-freight-rail-line-jacksonville-northside-fades-away/5780195001/

[thelakelander]

Not surprised. I never saw that rail line as being viable even when the study was being done. It didn't seem like the rail carriers were really interested in it.