Jax and Coronavirus

[BridgeTroll]

So here we are at the end of 2020. The US is approaching 20 million cases and 340,000 deaths (currently increasing by 3,700 per day).

It's pretty clear most people haven't got the slightest clue on how to avoid catching and spreading this.

People do know, but there hasn't been a coherent and aggressive response from various levels of government to slow and stop the spread of the virus. Plenty of other countries did it. Placing the blame on individuals for systemic issues is absurd.

The government could have shut down the airline's... they could force all restaurants closed... they could have forced many more draconian measures. I am glad they did not. Personal responsibility is the key...

[Charles Hunter]

Personal Responsibility would be great, if those who don't practice it were the only ones affected by their irresponsibility.  Sadly, they affect everyone they come near.

[jaxlongtimer]

So here we are at the end of 2020. The US is approaching 20 million cases and 340,000 deaths (currently increasing by 3,700 per day).

It's pretty clear most people haven't got the slightest clue on how to avoid catching and spreading this.

People do know, but there hasn't been a coherent and aggressive response from various levels of government to slow and stop the spread of the virus. Plenty of other countries did it. Placing the blame on individuals for systemic issues is absurd.

The government could have shut down the airline's... they could force all restaurants closed... they could have forced many more draconian measures. I am glad they did not. Personal responsibility is the key...

Well, maybe if we listened to experienced epidemiologists (whose early predictions have been spot-on regarding multiple and ever increasing waves of infection if this pandemic was not managed with best practices) and did those draconian actions for a few weeks, we wouldn't be facing a likely 2+ year (given we are now screwing up the vaccine rollout) severe drag on the economy that will surely cost far more, collectively, to businesses and individuals.  Plus, maybe we would have saved a few hundred thousand lives and untold numbers more that have spent days and weeks in ICU, possibly scarred for life, emotionally, medically and financially.  And, what does it cost the economy to have millions quarantining repeatedly for days and weeks (based on COVID relief programs alone, its in the trillions).  As the saying goes, "a slow sickness is a sure death" and unfortunately we are seeing that here.

By the way, I have experienced, just in the last few weeks, personally and near-personally known individuals dying in Jacksonville from COVID and am struck by how many people I now know in our community that have been afflicted by COVID-19 in just in the last 60 to 90 days.  We are definitely living in a house afire.

I especially feel for the suffering and dying "innocent bystanders" who were infected by those more careless and carefree not exercising their "personal responsibility."  The guise of "personal responsibility" stops at the line of "community responsibility" at some point and we are well beyond it with this pandemic.

A civil society recognizes there must be limits to "personal responsibility" and, as we are now witnessing, that many fail to prudently exercise "personal responsibility" (e.g. criminal behavior and more) requiring, for the good of the greater community, laws and regulations.  We can quibble about to what degree we should promulgate the same but most can agree that such structure is, in principle, necessary to protect, sustain and advance a community.  And, to add another quote, a "rising tide lifts all boats."

I believe our narcissistic, bombastic, name calling, truth-distorting (I am being kind here), science-bashing, fact-denying, egotistical, self-absorbed, conspiracy promoting, reckless and very selfish president has imparted much of his decrepit behavior to large numbers of our populace (including our governor and many in his own party) who now wish to emulate him in matters such as this and this is the foundation of our nation's disastrous mishandling of COVID-19.

History will not be kind to the actions of our "leaders" in 2020.

[Adam White]

I agree jaxlongtimer.

A person can choose to decide whether or not he wants to risk his health. But what of those they end up spreading the virus to? And what about the toll on the local health care system? If you want to get sick, fine - but don't go to hospital when you can't breathe and take a bed or a doctor's time away from someone who didn't choose to gamble.

[BridgeTroll]

I  also agree jaxlongtimer but you offer no solutions.  Shut down restaurants and bars?  Close the borders?  Shut down the airlines?  Ration access to super markets?  Arrest those not wearing masks?

What I just listed above are concrete and effective measures to save lives.  NO ONE WANTS TO GO THERE.  I  want everyone to adhere to safe protocols but unless you are willing to FORCE people to follow the rules... this is what you get.

[Adam White]

I  also agree jaxlongtimer but you offer no solutions.  Shut down restaurants and bars?  Close the borders?  Shut down the airlines?  Ration access to super markets?  Arrest those not wearing masks?

What I just listed above are concrete and effective measures to save lives.  NO ONE WANTS TO GO THERE.  I  want everyone to adhere to safe protocols but unless you are willing to FORCE people to follow the rules... this is what you get.

Earlier in the year, didn't people have to queue to get into grocery stores? I seem to remember a friend of mine posting pics of waiting outside Trader Joe's or something.

FWIW - all shops non-essential shops are closed in my town (unless the can provide a 'click and collect' service). Similarly, all restuarants and bars are closed unless they can do takeaway. Basically, grocery stores and drug stores are pretty much the only thing open. And gas stations/mechanics and a few other types of businesses. I don't know what the deal is with airlines, but lots of people had been travelling, so I assume they are still operating.

We had more relaxed restrictions, but then we ended up in a second wave which is worse than the first. Obviously, the restrictions we had weren't very effective. The problem now seems to be that people aren't taking the new restrictions as seriously as they did back in March or April during the original lockdown. I guess we'll have to see what happens.

[Charles Hunter]

Adam, is the government there providing any assistance to the businesses, or their employees, required to close?

[Adam White]

Adam, is the government there providing any assistance to the businesses, or their employees, required to close?

Yes. We have a furlough programme - but I don't know what it currently is. I was furloughed for about 3 months during the initial lockdown and at that time, you got 80% of your monthly pay (up to £2500 pre-tax). They've made changes along the way, so I have no idea what the current furlough scheme entails. They also have a programme where businesses can get a loan with no interest due for 12 months.

Not everyone qualifies for the furlough scheme - I believe there are or were serious issues for self-employed people.

[jaxlongtimer]

I  also agree jaxlongtimer but you offer no solutions.  Shut down restaurants and bars?  Close the borders?  Shut down the airlines?  Ration access to super markets?  Arrest those not wearing masks?

What I just listed above are concrete and effective measures to save lives.  NO ONE WANTS TO GO THERE.  I  want everyone to adhere to safe protocols but unless you are willing to FORCE people to follow the rules... this is what you get.

BridgeTroll, I do imply solutions in my post.

First, we should be listening  (not undermining) more to the recommendations of experienced epidemiologists who know very well how a pandemic blows up and the steps to slow it down.  I say "slow it down" because I recall experts early on saying a majority of people would be infected over the longer haul, no matter what steps were taken, and that our main goal would be to "flatten the curve."  At this point, we are not even doing that.  The basic steps were, and still are, avoiding/cancelling group settings/super-spreader events, wearing masks, social distancing and minimizing interactions with others at work, shopping or in all other aspects of our lives.

The second missed opportunity was the failure of the federal government to effectively coordinate response standards nationwide and to properly support states and local communities with best practice expertise and coordinated and efficiently dispersed resources to manage the pandemic.  This continues to be a problem now with the vaccine rollout.

The third step was to be more forthright, transparent and honest, both at the outset and ongoing, about what it would take to best manage the pandemic instead of blowing it off and saying it was nothing or we would be quickly over it.  And, lacking coordinated and consistent communications is the first "no-no" on how to manage a crisis. Many of our public officials compounded this by setting bad examples with their words and deeds, including not wearing masks in public and hosting super-spreader events.  This has led to wasted effort addressing conspiracy theories and undue skepticism, resistance to the above steps and outright militancy by many who believe they have an official blessing to resist all steps to control the pandemic leading to even more pandemic inflammation than might have otherwise occurred.

Fourth, while enforcement is always an issue and is never perfect (or we would never have any crime, etc.!), more stringent and timely decisions to shut down certain activities in our communities should have been more widespread.  Just in Florida, we have a governor who not only will not make such decisions on an "as needed" basis, but won't let local officials make them either.  This undermines the ability to have measured responses and adds another layer of mixed messaging and confusion to the public.

I am sure experts could add further "solutions" to the above.

[BridgeTroll]

JLT... I  assume when you say "we" you mean 100% of the population. My swag would be probably 70% are complying with CDC guidelines. The other 30%?? This is where personal responsibility comes in.  Stay quarantined. If your fellow citizens are not 100% in compliance then it is up to you to remain safe.

Yes... the federal response was inadequate. You have to agree that since this is an entirely new disaster that the hospitals, government and even private sector was completely unprepared for.

The governor of Florida stopped all vehicles at the border.... he closed restaurants and bars, he closed schools... over time these restrictions were correctly adjusted.   Pretty sure DeSantis never governed during a pandemic before. 

If you want to stay 100% safe. Stay quarantined in your home.  Do not leave.  Anything other than that and you are taking calculated risks.  You weigh the risk vs benefit and do what you need to.  This is what I mean by personal responsibility.

[jaxlongtimer]

JLT... I  assume when you say "we" you mean 100% of the population. My swag would be probably 70% are complying with CDC guidelines. The other 30%?? This is where personal responsibility comes in.  Stay quarantined. If your fellow citizens are not 100% in compliance then it is up to you to remain safe.

Yes... the federal response was inadequate. You have to agree that since this is an entirely new disaster that the hospitals, government and even private sector was completely unprepared for.

The governor of Florida stopped all vehicles at the border.... he closed restaurants and bars, he closed schools... over time these restrictions were correctly adjusted.   Pretty sure DeSantis never governed during a pandemic before. 

If you want to stay 100% safe. Stay quarantined in your home.  Do not leave.  Anything other than that and you are taking calculated risks.  You weigh the risk vs benefit and do what you need to.  This is what I mean by personal responsibility.

To be sure, neither federal officials nor the governor have followed most of the advice of epidemiologists, other doctors or scientists in managing the pandemic so, in my book, they don't get a free pass.  Many have predicted this scenario for years but were ignored so lack of preparation is no excuse.

I also don't agree that this was so novel that they couldn't anticipate, based on SARS and other pandemics around the world, the best practices to implement.  Regardless, when it became obvious to even lay people how serious this was, officials failed to properly take it as seriously as they should have.  To add, I view the dissing or ignoring of persons offering expert inputs as a prescription for putting us in the mess we are in now and blame elected officials accordingly.

By the way, the stopping of vehicles at the border was well after COVID-19 had manifested itself in the state, was not practicably effective and overlooked other avenues to get into the state.  In essence, I view it as more of a political stunt than a real call to action.  And, DeSantis waited way too long to start closing places and the reopened them way to quickly, again, neutering the effectiveness of those actions.  Remember, he also refused to close beaches during spring break.  He has continued to lack transparency or to honestly discuss the impact of the pandemic and won't even take questions anymore about it.  Further, he won't let local health departments communicate about their communities and has muzzled other health department officials and suppressed much of the state's data.  He also has not utilized epidemiologists on the faculty at U of F as in-state advisors.   His management of the pandemic is mostly a mirror image of Trumps.  That is not leadership, just the opposite.

It is not feasible to totally quarantine as you suggest.  People still need to go to doctors, obtain food, medicine and clothing, have people visit their homes for maintenance, etc.  Elderly and disabled persons also require caretakers.  Plus, many have no choice but to go to work if their employer allows/demands it or they are essential workers.  And, our governor has mandated that schools remain open.  Thus, those who are not "personally responsible" are endangering essential workers, first responders, teachers, health professionals, etc.  Many times they are violating the trust of family members and/or friends who believe they are being responsible when they are not.  Plus, they are pushing ICU's in hospitals to the limits or more preventing healthcare for other issues or the overflow of COVID-19 patients.

It takes a village to run our community and total isolation on a long term basis is virtually impossible to maintain.  Reducing the odds of exposure is thus critical to all of us and this requires everyone to be doing the "right thing."

[BridgeTroll]

I  appreciate the civil discourse and I  will say that we agree to disagree. I  do not "give a pass" to DeSantis and other government officials but I do think that DeSantis did a pretty good job keeping people safe, businesses open and people employed. The hospitals and first responders were horribly unprepared for a pandemic event.  I  suspect they will not be in the future.

Differences of opinion are inevitable regarding how to remain safe... remain employed... and just as importantly... remain free

Happy New Year!

[Charles Hunter]

Just tried to make appointments for my wife and I for the vaccine next week.  Several rounds of retrying due to 404 errors.  After getting past that, started getting 1020 Errors.  This went on for several minutes before my appointment was finally accepted.  Then went in to make appointment for the Mrs.  For perspective, the first thing you do is pick a one of the 5 days of next week. Then you enter your name, email, phone number, date-of-birth, select which group you are (health care or old), whether this is your first or second shot. Then you pick your time, with unavailable times crossed out on the drop-down.  In between the time I selected a time for my wife, the appointment became "unavailable" - this happened twice on the same day I was going.  Repeat all that preparatory stuff for another day - all times crossed out. A third day - same. And the same for the last 2 days.  If all the times are gone, why does it allow you to select a day?  So, I've got "COVID" on my calendar for next Thursday afternoon, to try again to make her appointment.

[Lunican]

Over 100,000 covid deaths in the U.S. so far in 2021.

[BridgeTroll]

Shocking. The bars and restaurants are packed in Jacksonville