Khan, Jaguars expect Lot J development to begin early 2020

[Charles Hunter]

The last 2 posts put hopes on "the next mayor/administration" negotiating with the taxpayer's interests first, and not the Jaguars'  We still have to get past the current Mayor's Lot J sweetheart deal.  How much will the City be able to borrow for Stadium Upgrades and Four Seasons Metro Park after borrowing one-quarter billion dollars for an ever-shrinking Lot J?  And this is just for the football team.  What about the things the City is supposed to be responsible for, like infrastructure, especially in long-ignored areas, and dealing with rising river and sea levels, and so on?

[thelakelander]

I don't see a way the current deal doesn't pass in the next few weeks in some form. You heard Gaffney....God even told him they had the votes to pass lol. I have no idea about everything else, outside of raising taxes.

[Ken_FSU]

How much will the City be able to borrow for Stadium Upgrades and Four Seasons Metro Park after borrowing one-quarter billion dollars for an ever-shrinking Lot J?

Easy answer:

Not enough.

Garrett Dennis might be the only member of City Council who's rightly pointed out that our borrowing capacity isn't going to allow for all of these big ticket projects to be debt-financed.

Stadium improvements feel like they're going to end up on a referendum tied to a tax increase.

Which is what makes this Trevor Lawrence thing fascinating.

People are so fickle when it comes to sports.

Lot J would have FLOWN through City Council with much less public opposition had legislation been introduced in late 2017 or early 2018.

A year and change later, it's a totally different story.

[Ken_FSU]

The London game is only a good thing for Jacksonville if it actually keeps the other games in Jacksonville. If it ultimately serves as a pretense to ship more games over and contribute to a move somewhere else later, then it isn't a good thing.

That, my friend, is the billion dollar question.

I've never bought the conspiracy that Shad Khan has a secret agenda to move the team to London.

It just doesn't pass the smell test.

This is a guy who came to America with like $50 to his name and is so tight with money that he foreclosed on an organic farm in Orange Park for like $250k. I just don't see a universe where he's spent years paying half for stadium renovations, designed and co-financed Daily's Place, engaged high-priced firms like Beyer Blinder Belle, Populous, and Cordish on massive development plans, etc. if his motiviation was to move the team to London.

Say what you want about Lot J and how much of a sweetheart deal it is, but again, I just don't see the leap in logic between "Shad Khan wants to pump $100-$200 million of his personal money into Lot J (depending on the split with Cordish)" and "Shad Khan has secret plans to move the team to London."

If it was his desire to move the Jags away from Jacksonville, all he would have needed to do is nothing. No proactive stadium improvements. No ancillary development to boost local revenue. No Bold Events and stadium shows to pad the team's finances. No proactively engaging the city on stadium talks aimed to secure a long-term lease agreement with corresponding stadium upgrades. Just quietly allow the revenue streams to fall to last place relative the rest of the league, throw your hands up in the air, and vacate the lease and move to another market.

There's just a mountain of evidence since Shad Khan bought the Jags that the franchise wants to be in this market long-term and is actively working to make that happen, and almost no evidence whatsoever that the team wants to move to London (and almost no evidence that the NFL even wants a team in London). But people have been talking about it for years as though it's a foregone conclusion and using it as ammunition against the Jags.

Totally get why people hate losing games to London, but the Jags have been super transparent since the beginning about why they play a game in London each year. Every single year at the State of the Franchise they present the very real numbers about the financial impact those games have on the organization. The optics can be trash, but I genuinely do think it's far, far, far less a shady secretive plan to relocate the team, and far, far more a means to an end for the Jags in their obsessive goal of moving out of the bottom quartile of teams in terms of revenue.

Is it possible that Khan is kicking the tires in case things don't work out in Jax long-term? Sure. But I firmly think the franchise has it better here than people think (and that the Jags let on). It's a great long-term home for the franchise.

[Ken_FSU]

P.S. Brenda Priestly Jackson is appearing with Gaffney tomorrow (along with Newby and Pittman).

Going to assume it's safe to move her to the Yes column now as well.

15-4 seems like a good betting line going into the New Year.

[Ken_FSU]

Last thing - Curry has become a true embarrassment to the city these last few months.

From the Twitter behavior.

To the weird call to arms against the Times-Union.

To backing out of the Christmas Tree lighting (I was in Hemming that night; pathetic to be scared off by that small protest; protip - you don't want protestors to use your kids' names, don't post personal info about your kids on the same account that you use to shout down Council members, troll the general public, and trying to get @'d by your favorite hip-hop artists).

To the odd sports-radio appearances.

Dude needs to go.

[marcuscnelson]

I'm not saying it'd be London, there are plenty of other cities in America that have been talked about. But when even Lamping is bringing up that he's been given advice about it, and this article is mentioning it, and they call themselves a "free-agent team" and put taxpayers over a barrel like this with no clear interest in serious compromises to make it work, it begs the question.

Assuming Khan knows the market, he should also be able to reasonably estimate how much taxpayers are willing to bear before the NFL breaks their backs. Half the issue we've discussed about Lot J is that the product we're being shown doesn't look like what it should if he's putting in as much money as he claims.

As far as Curry, the burden falls on quite a few people (including Duval Dems and assorted advocacy groups) for not making enough of a case to get him out in 2019 when we had the chance. Unless people are ready to make the case for a recall, he's here until 2023, save him running for something else before then.

[Adam White]

The London game is only a good thing for Jacksonville if it actually keeps the other games in Jacksonville. If it ultimately serves as a pretense to ship more games over and contribute to a move somewhere else later, then it isn't a good thing.

That, my friend, is the billion dollar question.

I've never bought the conspiracy that Shad Khan has a secret agenda to move the team to London.

It just doesn't pass the smell test.

This is a guy who came to America with like $50 to his name and is so tight with money that he foreclosed on an organic farm in Orange Park for like $250k. I just don't see a universe where he's spent years paying half for stadium renovations, designed and co-financed Daily's Place, engaged high-priced firms like Beyer Blinder Belle, Populous, and Cordish on massive development plans, etc. if his motiviation was to move the team to London.

Say what you want about Lot J and how much of a sweetheart deal it is, but again, I just don't see the leap in logic between "Shad Khan wants to pump $100-$200 million of his personal money into Lot J (depending on the split with Cordish)" and "Shad Khan has secret plans to move the team to London."

If it was his desire to move the Jags away from Jacksonville, all he would have needed to do is nothing. No proactive stadium improvements. No ancillary development to boost local revenue. No Bold Events and stadium shows to pad the team's finances. No proactively engaging the city on stadium talks aimed to secure a long-term lease agreement with corresponding stadium upgrades. Just quietly allow the revenue streams to fall to last place relative the rest of the league, throw your hands up in the air, and vacate the lease and move to another market.

There's just a mountain of evidence since Shad Khan bought the Jags that the franchise wants to be in this market long-term and is actively working to make that happen, and almost no evidence whatsoever that the team wants to move to London (and almost no evidence that the NFL even wants a team in London). But people have been talking about it for years as though it's a foregone conclusion and using it as ammunition against the Jags.

Totally get why people hate losing games to London, but the Jags have been super transparent since the beginning about why they play a game in London each year. Every single year at the State of the Franchise they present the very real numbers about the financial impact those games have on the organization. The optics can be trash, but I genuinely do think it's far, far, far less a shady secretive plan to relocate the team, and far, far more a means to an end for the Jags in their obsessive goal of moving out of the bottom quartile of teams in terms of revenue.

Is it possible that Khan is kicking the tires in case things don't work out in Jax long-term? Sure. But I firmly think the franchise has it better here than people think (and that the Jags let on). It's a great long-term home for the franchise.

I'm not saying there is any 'conspiracy' to move the team to London. But keep in mind that Khan made a serious attempt to buy Wembley stadium from the FA (and would've succeeded if there hadn't been a massive public backlash). He clearly has demonstrated an interest in increasing his presence in London (in terms of sports). Maybe he isn't planning on moving the team to London - but I personally think he would if he was given the opportunity (and the terms were favourable).

[heights unknown]

The London game is only a good thing for Jacksonville if it actually keeps the other games in Jacksonville. If it ultimately serves as a pretense to ship more games over and contribute to a move somewhere else later, then it isn't a good thing.

That, my friend, is the billion dollar question.

I've never bought the conspiracy that Shad Khan has a secret agenda to move the team to London.

It just doesn't pass the smell test.

This is a guy who came to America with like $50 to his name and is so tight with money that he foreclosed on an organic farm in Orange Park for like $250k. I just don't see a universe where he's spent years paying half for stadium renovations, designed and co-financed Daily's Place, engaged high-priced firms like Beyer Blinder Belle, Populous, and Cordish on massive development plans, etc. if his motiviation was to move the team to London.

Say what you want about Lot J and how much of a sweetheart deal it is, but again, I just don't see the leap in logic between "Shad Khan wants to pump $100-$200 million of his personal money into Lot J (depending on the split with Cordish)" and "Shad Khan has secret plans to move the team to London."

If it was his desire to move the Jags away from Jacksonville, all he would have needed to do is nothing. No proactive stadium improvements. No ancillary development to boost local revenue. No Bold Events and stadium shows to pad the team's finances. No proactively engaging the city on stadium talks aimed to secure a long-term lease agreement with corresponding stadium upgrades. Just quietly allow the revenue streams to fall to last place relative the rest of the league, throw your hands up in the air, and vacate the lease and move to another market.

There's just a mountain of evidence since Shad Khan bought the Jags that the franchise wants to be in this market long-term and is actively working to make that happen, and almost no evidence whatsoever that the team wants to move to London (and almost no evidence that the NFL even wants a team in London). But people have been talking about it for years as though it's a foregone conclusion and using it as ammunition against the Jags.

Totally get why people hate losing games to London, but the Jags have been super transparent since the beginning about why they play a game in London each year. Every single year at the State of the Franchise they present the very real numbers about the financial impact those games have on the organization. The optics can be trash, but I genuinely do think it's far, far, far less a shady secretive plan to relocate the team, and far, far more a means to an end for the Jags in their obsessive goal of moving out of the bottom quartile of teams in terms of revenue.

Is it possible that Khan is kicking the tires in case things don't work out in Jax long-term? Sure. But I firmly think the franchise has it better here than people think (and that the Jags let on). It's a great long-term home for the franchise.

When Weaver sold the Jags to Khan, didn't he say that one of the permanent stipulations would be that the Jags remain in Jacksonville and never be moved? Is it possible that the contractual or sales agreement to Khan from Weaver, made have stipulated or iterated that the Jags forever remain in Jacksonville and never be sold? I believe that could  be possible and I agree with all that you have said; maybe Khan can never move the team from Jax; maybe sell it yes, but it must remain in Jax.

[marcuscnelson]

^ No. According to Mark Lamping, the only thing obligating Khan to stay at this point is the existing lease at TIAA Bank. He described themselves as a "free-agent team" based on that.

[Papa33]

I remember Sam Kovaris interviewing Wayne Weaver after the announcement that he sold the team.  Weaver said there was no way to put anything in the sale agreement about moving the team, but that he was convinced that Kahn was not interested in moving the team and was committed to keeping the team in Jacksonville.  Weaver also said other buyers had approached him, but would not sell because those buyers did not have the commitment to Jacksonville.

[jaxlongtimer]

quote author=jaxlongtimer link=topic=35949.msg508035#msg508035 date=1609200712]

The comment below is another argument I have trouble buying into.  Khan paid the Weavers a purchase price well below other NFL team valuations precisely because the Jags play in a small market.  As such, he can't reasonably demand that he needs help to keep the franchise afloat as he doesn't require the same dollar returns that would be appropriate if he invested more in a higher priced team.

Not entirely true. They paid the exact same entry fee the Carolina Panthers paid. Putting the NFL hat on for a second, they certainly expected more from Jacksonville in 25 years. I mean, while the Charlotte market isn't amazing, Charlotte has grown its corporate base much more then we have (and kept more during M&A).  If they had to do it again, I'm sure they would have awarded the franchise to Oakland, St. Louis, or Baltimore.

Now with all of that said, I agree that Monroe's article nailed it.

You are referring to the fee paid by Weaver & Co. at the Jags inception.  I am referring to the later purchase price paid by Khan to Weaver.  That price was well below the value of other NFL teams, no doubt, because of the Jags lesser potential in our smaller market.

Khan is aiming for a financial windfall by holding the Jags financial performance to the same standards of larger markets, hence the London games, Daily's, Lot J, etc. to get us there.  The fact that he has already roughly tripled the team's value is not, apparently, enough to satisfy his greed.  This is unfair to the citizens of Jacksonville and we must draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough.

If the NFL has issues with Jacksonville not living up to larger market returns, then they should have (a) never awarded us a franchise to begin with and (b) we, the citizens of Jacksonville, are fighting a losing battle as we can't change our demographics fast enough to satisfy their financial interests and we should just go on and throw in the towel now given the inevitable desire of the NFL to move the franchise no matter what sacrifices we make locally.

Also, I found the letter below to the Times Union of interest, especially the comment I bolded about fastest growing cities.

Jacksonville doesn't need the NFL

First Lenny Curry hoodwinked the people of Jacksonville into approving a future sales tax to fund the looming pension fund debt whose impact won't be felt until he's long gone and forgotten. Then Lenny Curry appointed the JEA Board and CEO who conspired to sell off one of the City's most valuable assets. Now Lenny Curry is in cahoots with Shad Kjan, a political supporter, to hand over hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars to a billionaire with a history of losing sports teams and ho-hum design concepts. And behind the scenes, Lenny Curry is scurrying to offer even more of our riverfront property--our urban jewel Metropolitan Park--to Khan in a shady land swap deal. What will it take for our City Council to stand up to this lame duck mayor and stop giving our money to slick developers?

Business Insider recently ranked the best and fastest growing cities in the U.S. Of the top 25, NOT ONE is home to an NFL team. We don't need Khan and we don't need the Jaguars and their endless demands for more money. What we do need are leaders who put the citizens of Jacksonville first, who understand Jacksonville's identity is inexorably tied to the St. Johns River, and who realize great cities are defined by clean and safe streets, excellent schools, modern, sustainable infrastructure, a diverse pool of employable citizens; grand public gathering spaces (Met Park!), art and architecture, and most importantly, the people they were elected to serve.

Helen Urban, Atlantic Beach

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/2020/12/28/letters-readers-jacksonville-doesnt-need-nfl/4037132001/

[vicupstate]

I just don't see a universe where he's spent years paying half for stadium renovations, designed and co-financed Daily's Place, engaged high-priced firms like Beyer Blinder Belle, Populous, and Cordish on massive development plans, etc. if his motiviation was to move the team to London.

Say what you want about Lot J and how much of a sweetheart deal it is, but again, I just don't see the leap in logic between "Shad Khan wants to pump $100-$200 million of his personal money into Lot J (depending on the split with Cordish)" and "Shad Khan has secret plans to move the team to London."

I seriously doubt that Khan has any money invested in the stadium district or even will once Lot J is completed. Given the size and quality of the projects, the taxpayer funding was/is fully sufficient for what was built.

[Ken_FSU]

Business Insider recently ranked the best and fastest growing cities in the U.S. Of the top 25, NOT ONE is home to an NFL team.

It's a good talking point, but is ultimately as much bullshit as the claim that Lot J will create 2,000 permanent jobs.

Here's the actual Business Insider story.

https://www.businessinsider.com/fastest-growing-us-cities-best-growing-economies-ranked?amp

Even discounting the methodology that favors cities with fewer than 100,000 residents (e.g. too small for the NFL to begin with), if you read the actual article, you'll see that the majority of these cities are, in fact, suburbs and exurbs of existing NFL markets (Phoenix, Charlotte, Tampa, Miami, Las Vegas, Dallas, Houston, etc.)

Patently silly for that letter writer to say that a collection of suburbs 15 miles outside of these cities are NOT NFL CITIES~!

There's better ways to prove their point.

For the record, Jacksonville (along with Nashville and Austin) have been some of the fastest growing major cities in the country in 2020.

[Ken_FSU]

P.S. As a good Christian boy, it's absolutely appalling to hear the "God wants Lot J!" rhetoric from Gaffney and other faith leaders, as if it's some kind of religious crusade.

EXCEEDINGLY patronizing, condescending, and tone deaf in our current climate.

12 years of Catholic school and I never once heard anything about God preaching the virtues of luxury hotels and residential at the expense of the poor.

To me, might be the most disgraceful, insulting to the populace declaration of this entire ordeal.