Downtown Jacksonville mega-projects Shipyards and District in limbo

[thelakelander]

Where the St. Johns River flows through downtown Jacksonville, the barren land known as The Shipyards on the Northbank and the grass-covered tract called The District on the Southbank face each other in mirror images of proposed mega-developments that have yet to break ground after years of trying.

In June, the clock ran out on Jaguars owner Shad Khan's right to negotiate a redevelopment agreement for The Shipyards and Metropolitan Park, the long swath of Northbank riverfront where Khan's plan in 2017 called for condominiums, apartments, hotels, stores, restaurants and marina docks along 70 acres.

Time is running down as well for The District on the Southbank.

Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/08/26/downtown-jacksonville-mega-projects-struggle-get-off-ground/5631345002/

[MusicMan]

Surprise?

[marcuscnelson]

Could this be a sign... that maybe, constantly hitching the taxpayer wagon to mega-projects and sugar daddies instead of getting the fundamentals right isn't the best plan?

[Ken_FSU]

So many projects announced to help bring vibrancy to the urban core during this economic cycle, so few shovels in the ground.

- The Shipyards
- The District
- Lot J
- Veterans Park w/ Elevated gardens
- Berkman II/Dave and Busters on Steroids
- Ambassador Hotel/Condos
- USS Adams
- Jones Bros Furniture
- Doro District
- Bullbriar Restaurant in the Marble Bank building
- Courtyard by Marriot at the Trio with Rooftop Bar
- Laura Street Garage with ground-floor retail
- Convention Center
- Ford on Bay/Spandrel Development
- Mathers Social/Joystick
- Main Street Dog Park
- Friendship Fountain Node (fountain upgrades, playground, misters with projected video)
- Times-Union Center Node (visitor center, outdoor dining, movies/events projected onto the side of the CSX building)
- Hemming Park infrastructure improvements (Community First stage, Black Sheep shipping container restaurant)
- Hyatt Place
- Hotel Indigo with Rooftop Bar
- First Baptist Campus Sale & Redevelopment
- Snyder Memorial RFP

We've seen some good faith investment from entities like VyStar, FCSJ, Forking Restaurants, and Steve Atkins/Southeast Group who speak of their projects almost altruistically (helping Downtown Jacksonville) rather than economically (showing a large return on their investments), some restaurants and retailers drawn to the area via public incentives, and some much needed workforce housing come online via Vestcor, but a decade removed from the recession, downtown feels no closer to being a hot investment market than it did ten years ago.

In a lot of ways, despite what the DVI blasts out each year in their overly inflated annual reports, it feels like we have actually moved backwards in recent years, or at best played a zero sum game. We've razed the Landing; demoed historic building stock; decreased density with more surface parking (Greyhound Station) and barren lawns (Annex, Courthouse, Main Street pocket park); lost marquee restaurant space (the Landing, Candy Apple, Magnificat, etc.).

Watching urban trends throughout the nation and seeing the progress that our sister cities have made - or even looking at what's happening in Brooklyn with less city intervention - it just seems so clear that the people in charge of facilitating downtown development are not only not helping, but are actively sabotaging any momentum the private sector has attempted to make downtown.

I like the nuts and bolts approach that the DIA is taking with zoning reform, two-way streets, concentrating incentives into specific corridors, facade improvement, and beefing up the historic preservation trust and rehab funding, but man have we let an unprecedented economic cycle pass without significant progress. Would love to see the dollar breakdown between public demo and public construction over the last five years in particular.

[Steve]

Agree with all said.

Now, there is a major difference between the two: The Shipyards is city-owned. The District is not.

[bl8jaxnative]

this obsession with a single neighborhood, downtown, is not healthy.

[Ken_FSU]

this obsession with a single neighborhood, downtown, is not healthy.

Great cities have great downtowns.

And as someone who works closely with the city on tourism, I can tell you without hesitation that we're leaving a lot of money on the table as well by not figuring out our downtown situation.

The RNC is a great example.

Despite all of our major event facilities being downtown, a huge percentage of guests were planning to stay outside of city limits. Pumping bed taxes and revenue into the hotels and restaurants in Fernandina Beach and Amelia Island instead.

All neighborhoods are important, but criticizing a focus on downtown is akin to saying, "this focus on a singular organ, your heart, is not healthy."

[marcuscnelson]

So many projects announced to help bring vibrancy to the urban core during this economic cycle, so few shovels in the ground.

- The Shipyards
- The District
- Lot J
- Veterans Park w/ Elevated gardens
- Berkman II/Dave and Busters on Steroids
- Ambassador Hotel/Condos
- USS Adams
- Jones Bros Furniture
- Doro District
- Bullbriar Restaurant in the Marble Bank building
- Courtyard by Marriot at the Trio with Rooftop Bar
- Laura Street Garage with ground-floor retail
- Convention Center
- Ford on Bay/Spandrel Development
- Mathers Social/Joystick
- Main Street Dog Park
- Friendship Fountain Node (fountain upgrades, playground, misters with projected video)
- Times-Union Center Node (visitor center, outdoor dining, movies/events projected onto the side of the CSX building)
- Hemming Park infrastructure improvements (Community First stage, Black Sheep shipping container restaurant)
- Hyatt Place
- Hotel Indigo with Rooftop Bar
- First Baptist Campus Sale & Redevelopment
- Snyder Memorial RFP

We've seen some good faith investment from entities like VyStar, FCSJ, Forking Restaurants, and Steve Atkins/Southeast Group who speak of their projects almost altruistically (helping Downtown Jacksonville) rather than economically (showing a large return on their investments), some restaurants and retailers drawn to the area via public incentives, and some much needed workforce housing come online via Vestcor, but a decade removed from the recession, downtown feels no closer to being a hot investment market than it did ten years ago.

In a lot of ways, despite what the DVI blasts out each year in their overly inflated annual reports, it feels like we have actually moved backwards in recent years, or at best played a zero sum game. We've razed the Landing; demoed historic building stock; decreased density with more surface parking (Greyhound Station) and barren lawns (Annex, Courthouse, Main Street pocket park); lost marquee restaurant space (the Landing, Candy Apple, Magnificat, etc.).

Watching urban trends throughout the nation and seeing the progress that our sister cities have made - or even looking at what's happening in Brooklyn with less city intervention - it just seems so clear that the people in charge of facilitating downtown development are not only not helping, but are actively sabotaging any momentum the private sector has attempted to make downtown.

I like the nuts and bolts approach that the DIA is taking with zoning reform, two-way streets, concentrating incentives into specific corridors, facade improvement, and beefing up the historic preservation trust and rehab funding, but man have we let an unprecedented economic cycle pass without significant progress. Would love to see the dollar breakdown between public demo and public construction over the last five years in particular.

Sounds like it's time to pull out the list of predictions from a few years ago, see how little of it we checked off. I'm honestly not sure if anything got checked off.

[jaxlongtimer]

Now, there is a major difference between the two: The Shipyards is city-owned. The District is not.

Yes, but the City via JEA, did have control of the District property.  Effectively, it's just at a different point on the development timeline but, nonetheless, another failed City initiative.

The blessing, to me, is this gives the Green Space group a chance to retrieve these properties from developers and convert them into the riverfront "large parks" we should be creating for now and the next 100 years and beyond.  Yes, that requires vision, unfortunately, something missing in our City leaders, so not holding out much hope but glad someone is trying.

[BridgeTroll]

"Large Parks?"  Like the Landing?  City hall annex?

[thelakelander]

Parks boil down to the same problem. Money. You want to do something nice that attracts people consistently? Expect to spend a good $100 million and include things like retail, museums, restrooms, fountains and landscaping that's a bit more attractive than sod. Then it will all need to be maintained.

[bl8jaxnative]

this obsession with a single neighborhood, downtown, is not healthy.

Great cities have great downtowns.

a) Great cities don't have great downtowns.  Dowtowns are an American / Canadian thing.  The great cities of europe don't have them.

b) Great downtown are a result of a vibrant, WEALTHY city.

Jacksonville's never been wealthy.  In terms on income, it's at the bottom of semi-major cities in this country.  It ain't going to be wealthy anytime soon.


Getting city sewer and water to the properties in picketville will do far more to improve the lives of Jacksonvillians than a few bars downtown.

And as someone who works closely with the city on tourism, I can tell you without hesitation that we're leaving a lot of money on the table as well by not figuring out our downtown situation.

The RNC is a great example.

Despite all of our major event facilities being downtown, a huge percentage of guests were planning to stay outside of city limits. Pumping bed taxes and revenue into the hotels and restaurants in Fernandina Beach and Amelia Island instead.

All neighborhoods are important, but criticizing a focus on downtown is akin to saying, "this focus on a singular organ, your heart, is not healthy."
[/quote]

[MusicMan]

What's the chance Elements Development/Rummell/Munz gets foreclosed on by their lender? 

[marcuscnelson]

a) Great cities don't have great downtowns.  Dowtowns are an American / Canadian thing.  The great cities of europe don't have them.

b) Great downtown are a result of a vibrant, WEALTHY city.

Jacksonville's never been wealthy.  In terms on income, it's at the bottom of semi-major cities in this country.  It ain't going to be wealthy anytime soon.

Getting city sewer and water to the properties in picketville will do far more to improve the lives of Jacksonvillians than a few bars downtown.

You just love being a contrarian, don't you?

a) Who brought up "the great cities of Europe?" No one here is expecting Jacksonville to be London or Paris. We're talking about equivalent peer cities, that have done a great job making their downtowns a nice place to be.

b) There are plenty of smaller towns that aren't anywhere near as wealthy as Jacksonville that have great compact downtown areas. It's not purely a matter of wealth, it's a matter of planning and fiscal responsibility. For the amount of money we've spent just to demolish stuff in favor of empty lots, we could have done plenty to improve downtown alongside any decent planning at all.

No one here disagrees that expanding sewer service is a good idea. Bringing it up like we don't want to is acting in bad faith.

[vicupstate]

b) Great downtown are a result of a vibrant, WEALTHY city.

{cough} Baltimore {cough}