DCPS board to reconsider schools named after Andrew Jackson, Jean Ribault

[BridgeTroll]

I have a hard time with it too... however it seems in this day and age we probably need to remove as many triggers of this sort. I agree that no offence may be intended with many names... but apparently there are people or groups of people who can be offended to the point of violence and it just isn't worth it... including veterans.  This pains me because as a veteran myself I know vets have committed war crimes and atrocities.  Veterans are an example of a group of flawed humans that we should stop naming things after...

I find this entire thing sad... but it's where we are...

This is where I disagree. Just because an angry mob defaces something or tries to burn something down doesn't mean what they're defacing or burning down is wrong.

Again I use the example: the confederacy was a group set on keeping black people as slaves....to the point that they'd fight to the death to break the country up. That is very different than some people like U.S. Grant that kept slaves at one point but then gave them up.

To me under that same logic, there were plenty of people that fought to keep the lunch counters all white in Downtown Jacksonville. They didn't deface buildings or burn things down....they beat blacks in order to do it. If you asked those white people that engaged in the violence they would probably say they were triggered by the blacks sitting down at the lunch counter. Clearly this is a view that 99.9% of America would view today as bull crap and racist. But at the time that's what certain people felt.

If I understand... The  gist of your argument is that there is a line... or a limit to renaming or not naming things after flawed humans. I myself agree... but there is a large contingent who want Jefferson, Washington, Jackson, Grant, and others removed from their current status and "redesignated".  They are vandalizing and defacing monuments nearly daily with almost no outcry or resistance...

[Steve]

(Not sure if the Buffalo Bills are named after Buffalo Bill, though - that's just a weird name).

Factoid of the day. The NFL's Bills were named after the AAFC's Buffalo Bills who were originally named the Buffalo Bisons, but were renamed after a short time after, yes, Buffalo Bill.

[Steve]

I have a hard time with it too... however it seems in this day and age we probably need to remove as many triggers of this sort. I agree that no offence may be intended with many names... but apparently there are people or groups of people who can be offended to the point of violence and it just isn't worth it... including veterans.  This pains me because as a veteran myself I know vets have committed war crimes and atrocities.  Veterans are an example of a group of flawed humans that we should stop naming things after...

I find this entire thing sad... but it's where we are...

This is where I disagree. Just because an angry mob defaces something or tries to burn something down doesn't mean what they're defacing or burning down is wrong.

Again I use the example: the confederacy was a group set on keeping black people as slaves....to the point that they'd fight to the death to break the country up. That is very different than some people like U.S. Grant that kept slaves at one point but then gave them up.

To me under that same logic, there were plenty of people that fought to keep the lunch counters all white in Downtown Jacksonville. They didn't deface buildings or burn things down....they beat blacks in order to do it. If you asked those white people that engaged in the violence they would probably say they were triggered by the blacks sitting down at the lunch counter. Clearly this is a view that 99.9% of America would view today as bull crap and racist. But at the time that's what certain people felt.

If I understand... The  gist of your argument is that there is a line... or a limit to renaming or not naming things after flawed humans. I myself agree... but there is a large contingent who want Jefferson, Washington, Jackson, Grant, and others removed from their current status and "redesignated".  They are vandalizing and defacing monuments nearly daily with almost no outcry or resistance...

I definitely oppose those people. But I'm not sure how I'm supposed to resist defacing monuments. I'm certainly not going to get into defacing things or violence. And I'm really not in the mood to stand guard all night myself on these things.

[BridgeTroll]

I have a hard time with it too... however it seems in this day and age we probably need to remove as many triggers of this sort. I agree that no offence may be intended with many names... but apparently there are people or groups of people who can be offended to the point of violence and it just isn't worth it... including veterans.  This pains me because as a veteran myself I know vets have committed war crimes and atrocities.  Veterans are an example of a group of flawed humans that we should stop naming things after...

I find this entire thing sad... but it's where we are...

This is where I disagree. Just because an angry mob defaces something or tries to burn something down doesn't mean what they're defacing or burning down is wrong.

Again I use the example: the confederacy was a group set on keeping black people as slaves....to the point that they'd fight to the death to break the country up. That is very different than some people like U.S. Grant that kept slaves at one point but then gave them up.

To me under that same logic, there were plenty of people that fought to keep the lunch counters all white in Downtown Jacksonville. They didn't deface buildings or burn things down....they beat blacks in order to do it. If you asked those white people that engaged in the violence they would probably say they were triggered by the blacks sitting down at the lunch counter. Clearly this is a view that 99.9% of America would view today as bull crap and racist. But at the time that's what certain people felt.

If I understand... The  gist of your argument is that there is a line... or a limit to renaming or not naming things after flawed humans. I myself agree... but there is a large contingent who want Jefferson, Washington, Jackson, Grant, and others removed from their current status and "redesignated".  They are vandalizing and defacing monuments nearly daily with almost no outcry or resistance...

I definitely oppose those people. But I'm not sure how I'm supposed to resist defacing monuments. I'm certainly not going to get into defacing things or violence. And I'm really not in the mood to stand guard all night myself on these things.

In the cities where the violence and vandalism is occurring local governments have shown a high level of either impotence or tacit approval... most citizens are silent to avoid being "cancelled"...

[Tacachale]

I wouldn't be surprised if the pendulum swung the other way at some point, and there was pushback on these name changes. Not only because of the fact that most don't truly find things named "Ribault", "Jefferson," or "Washington" offensive, but because it's a focus on a mostly symbolic change rather than one that really improves anyone's life.

I'm mostly interested to see if the current students will get a voice in this change. Forest High went through after genuine community engagement. Will that happen here? Do we even have a sense of what the students want?

[Charles Hunter]

If DCPS follows its own rules, there will be community engagement.  Current students are just one of several constituencies to be involved.
From the DCPS Policy Handbook, Section 8.59 Naming or Renaming Schools
https://dcps.duvalschools.org/Page/9598

III.   Renaming an Existing School
A.   The Superintendent, any School Board member, or one of the initiating entities named below, may submit a written request to the School Board during a regular Board meeting, requesting the Board rename an existing school. An "initiating entity" is defined as:
1.   SAC of the school;
2.   PTA of the school;
3.   At least 75% of the school's students;
4.   Alumni of the school (the minimum number of which is at least 75% of the school's current student body population, as evidenced by a signed petition indicating the graduate's name and graduation year)*; or
5.   Community members within the school's attendance zone (the minimum number of which is at least 75% of the school's current student body population, as evidenced by a signed petition indicating the community member's name and address within the attendance zone)*.
*Note: The district will have no obligation to verify the accuracy of the petitions presented.

B.   Upon receipt of the written request described in subsection III.A. above, the School Board shall decide by a majority vote of the Board whether to accept the written request and refer the matter to the Superintendent for further review. If the School Board accepts the written request, then the Superintendent shall establish procedures for renaming the school, which include soliciting community input from the following:
1.   SAC of the school;
2.   PTA of the school;
3.   Students of the school;
4.   Community members within the school's attendance zone;
5.   Members of the school's faculty and staff; and
6.   Alumni of the school.

C.   The Superintendent shall offer to the School Board for its decision by a vote of the Board, either a proposed new name to the Board or recommend no change to the school's existing name. The School Board may, after considering the submission of the Superintendent's recommendation, accept or reject the recommendation, or request another name be proposed for its consideration, until the Board makes a final determination of the petition to rename the school.

IV.   Requirements applicable to naming or renaming a school:
A.   The name of the school shall not be of a person (whether living or deceased); and
B.   The name shall not be in conflict with an existing name of a school.

The Board initiated the name change process, so now they should be onto "B" where the Superintendent solicits input from that list of people and groups.  If I remember correctly, they held public meetings at Westside HS over that name change, as well as Public Hearings at scheduled Board meetings.

[Tacachale]

If DCPS follows its own rules, there will be community engagement.  Current students are just one of several constituencies to be involved.
From the DCPS Policy Handbook, Section 8.59 Naming or Renaming Schools
https://dcps.duvalschools.org/Page/9598

III.   Renaming an Existing School
A.   The Superintendent, any School Board member, or one of the initiating entities named below, may submit a written request to the School Board during a regular Board meeting, requesting the Board rename an existing school. An "initiating entity" is defined as:
1.   SAC of the school;
2.   PTA of the school;
3.   At least 75% of the school's students;
4.   Alumni of the school (the minimum number of which is at least 75% of the school's current student body population, as evidenced by a signed petition indicating the graduate's name and graduation year)*; or
5.   Community members within the school's attendance zone (the minimum number of which is at least 75% of the school's current student body population, as evidenced by a signed petition indicating the community member's name and address within the attendance zone)*.
*Note: The district will have no obligation to verify the accuracy of the petitions presented.

B.   Upon receipt of the written request described in subsection III.A. above, the School Board shall decide by a majority vote of the Board whether to accept the written request and refer the matter to the Superintendent for further review. If the School Board accepts the written request, then the Superintendent shall establish procedures for renaming the school, which include soliciting community input from the following:
1.   SAC of the school;
2.   PTA of the school;
3.   Students of the school;
4.   Community members within the school's attendance zone;
5.   Members of the school's faculty and staff; and
6.   Alumni of the school.

C.   The Superintendent shall offer to the School Board for its decision by a vote of the Board, either a proposed new name to the Board or recommend no change to the school's existing name. The School Board may, after considering the submission of the Superintendent's recommendation, accept or reject the recommendation, or request another name be proposed for its consideration, until the Board makes a final determination of the petition to rename the school.

IV.   Requirements applicable to naming or renaming a school:
A.   The name of the school shall not be of a person (whether living or deceased); and
B.   The name shall not be in conflict with an existing name of a school.

The Board initiated the name change process, so now they should be onto "B" where the Superintendent solicits input from that list of people and groups.  If I remember correctly, they held public meetings at Westside HS over that name change, as well as Public Hearings at scheduled Board meetings.

Thanks, good to know.

[BridgeTroll]

Thank you Charles...

[bl8jaxnative]

Years later after renaming Lake Calhoun to Lake Some-Dakota-Name-Even-Though-They-Took-The-Land-From-The-Ojibwe..... years after Minneapolis renamed the lake:

a) Shooting are up 140%
b) Murders are up 58%
c) Poverty amongst First Nationers is up 26%
d) Homeless......

well, ya.

What is in a name can be incredibly important.  92% of things that are named don't matter.

[Adam White]

Years later after renaming Lake Calhoun to Lake Some-Dakota-Name-Even-Though-They-Took-The-Land-From-The-Ojibwe..... years after Minneapolis renamed the lake:

a) Shooting are up 140%
b) Murders are up 58%
c) Poverty amongst First Nationers is up 26%
d) Homeless......

well, ya.

What is in a name can be incredibly important.  92% of things that are named don't matter.

And I got indigestion yesterday, too. Oh, the folly of renaming the lake.

(It's Bde Maka Ska, by the way).

[sandyshoes]

For your consideration and enjoyment:  It's the longest lake name in the world, with 14 syllables and a catchy little song to teach you how to pronounce it.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLtS-u32miY

[Papa33]

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/03/25/robert-e-lee-high-school-renaming-jacksonville-florida-orig-jk.cnn

[jaxlongtimer]

^ I have a family member that went to Lee decades ago.  They would be proud to have the name changed.  It's time for it.

Pretty amazing the comments in the video made at the meeting in support of retaining the name.  Defending slavery?  Are you kidding me.  I am no biblical scholar, but the use of the "citation" attributed to Jesus to defend slavery should be offensive to Christians everywhere.

I recently reviewed the award winning film, Harriet, the movie about Harriet Tubman.  If you want to better understand the horrors of slavery, watch that movie and then tell me how you defend Robert E. Lee and those that stood for slavery.

[bl8jaxnative]

SIde point - Lee's easy to defend.  He was key in preserving Union and minimizing guerrilla fighting after the war was over.   He was a key figure in publicly accepting the end of slavery.   


That said, schools aren't museums.  They exist to teach kids, not preserve history.   Public schools shouldn't have been named after Lee in 1880 let alone 1980 let alone today.

Lee got a school named after him because the Union lost that insurrection.  That was fine in sense the goal was preserve Union.   The tradeoff though was these sort of things left lurking about.

I have no issue taking issue with the overly simplistic idea that someone who fought for the CSA is just bad, bad, bad.   FFS, the way Sherman made Georgia howl was arguably chalk full of war crimes, even things that in the day were seen as wrong.   But those aren't the real issue.

Our public parks and buildings are a reflection OF WHO WE WANT TO BE.    They're not for persevering history.  That's what plaques and museums and parks are for.   So let's name these schools after Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey, Mae Jemison, A.L.Lewis, Alex Karp, Elon Musk, et al.    Hell, let's do it with the Jefferson's and the Washington's.    Don't worry, kids have history classes that, maybe, just maybe, will spend a lot of time talking about them.

But that's just what I feel.   What really matters is what name(s) do the people who go to these schools want.  Long as it's not Cardi B, Ricky what's his name or Madonna, let's do it.

[marcuscnelson]

Uh... huh.

SIde point - Lee's easy to defend.  He was key in preserving Union and minimizing guerrilla fighting after the war was over.   He was a key figure in publicly accepting the end of slavery.

Yet far more significantly than that, he was key in enabling the Civil War in the first place. He chose to support the traitors over his country. Let's be serious, people aren't defending Lee because of anything he did after the war. Especially when their defenses include things like "Jesus himself was never against slavery" and "If this high school is having problems, how long has it been predominantly African American?"

Lee got a school named after him because the Union lost that insurrection.  That was fine in sense the goal was preserve Union.   The tradeoff though was these sort of things left lurking about.

That, perhaps ironically, has a lot more to do with who was in the White House following the Civil War.

Our public parks and buildings are a reflection OF WHO WE WANT TO BE.    They're not for persevering history.  That's what plaques and museums and parks are for.   So let's name these schools after Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey, Mae Jemison, A.L.Lewis, Alex Karp, Elon Musk, et al.    Hell, let's do it with the Jefferson's and the Washington's.    Don't worry, kids have history classes that, maybe, just maybe, will spend a lot of time talking about them.

Better yet, why don't we just name them after who we are, or rather, where we are? There's a reason no one ever complains about the name of Mandarin High, or Atlantic Coast High, or Westside High. Who we want to be can come from what happens inside those buildings, or at those public parks, rather than what they're named. And we get to avoid the mess of arguing over their names later on.

But that's just what I feel.   What really matters is what name(s) do the people who go to these schools want.  Long as it's not Cardi B, Ricky what's his name or Madonna, let's do it.

Well, if we're going by who we want to be, maybe the people at these schools want to be Cardi B or Madonna. I'm sure if you looked hard enough, someone could argue why Madonna deserves to be on the same level as Jordan or Winfrey or Musk. I don't know if I'd agree, but by your standard there's no reason why we couldn't.

For everyone's sake, DCPS should just go with the same strategy they've used for every school built in the last thirty years, and just name it after where it is. It's shameful that we're having this conversation because some people just couldn't handle losing the right to own other people.