Demolition of Kartouche Building

[JaxAvondale]

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-approves-demolition-for-old-kartouche-nightclub

And the demo has been approved.

[Adam White]

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-approves-demolition-for-old-kartouche-nightclub

And the demo has been approved.

Jacksonville sucks.

[thelakelander]

Surprised it took this long to get the permit approved.

[jaxlongtimer]

"A majority of that building is getting recycled," Pfotenhauer said.

"There are lot of old wood timbers in that building that are getting recycled," he said. Elev8 also will work to recycle the bricks.

If the bones of the building are that valuable, why not save the demolition effort and just "recycle" the whole building in place and preserve its historic character at the same time.

And, what does it say about Downtown, that a prime 1.4 acre city block's highest and best use is for a suburban style gas station and convenience store?  Not much!  Another not-pedestrian-friendly block to further diminish the character of being a downtown.

[thelakelander]

^This demolition is a good example of why local preservation policies and programs have failed. It also makes a supporting case for the DIA's proposal to revamp the Trust Fund. I do believe that if the Trust Fund was revamped a year or two ago, this is a demolition that would not be happening.

[heights unknown]

16 years ago when I moved from South Florida, Fort Lauderdale area to West Central Florida, Sarasota-Bradenton area (at my Mom's behest...I was moving back to Jax and she stopped me), Tampa's downtown was dead, just like Jax is today. Now it is popping, thriving, and numerous proposed "talls" on the board (400 feet or more). And...they have two 600 plus footers, with one rising from the ground right now being constructed, and the other planned and ready to go into the construction phase. When those are constructed, Tampa will have the tallest building(s) in Florida between Miami and Atlanta (Jax held that title for years with BOA). Lastly,  back then there were a lot of vacant lots and parking lots in downtown Tampa; not many left, downtown Tampa is getting dense. My point? Nothing happening in Jax except proposed construction and building that may never get on the board to planning and certainly not construction phase; I say this because Jax leadership's track record is nil, and poor in that regard, they cannot be trusted to work on behalf of downtown and/or the city relative to real prosperity and success, and yes, to stack up with the other top 20 cities in the nation (Jax is #12 in population). It just irks me and I am ashamed, not of Jax itself, but ashamed of the substandard and misfit leaders. That is all for now.

[bl8jaxnative]

It could be a matter of leadership.

But if it was that, then why didn't Tampa have sooner?  Why don't we see this sort of density and activity in other well ran cities like Salt Lake, Providence, Fargo or Boulder?

IMHO there are 3 main drivers:
a) millennial coming of age; largest generation ever
b) foreign money
c) cheap capital

millennials are hitting their 40s and foreigners don't have capital that they're desperately trying to offshore ( buying US assets is offshore for them ).

It may not turn out to be a bubble in Tampa.  But don't be surprised to see that those 1/2 million dollar condos start selling for $300K in a few years.

for example
https://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/foreign-real-estate-investors-funnel-millions-toward-tampa-bay-as-south/2166812/


So maybe in the end it's a matter of leadership.  Not a need for yet another riverwalk extension or saving some 83 year old bldg shell.  But leadership that can put together  and attract the big hitters needed to change the perception of Jacksonville that is required to attract those foreign buyers and Gen Z?

[PYMBER]

Why is Jacksonville such a dump?  The city is not well kept. It hasn't even replaced the balustrades on Memorial Park three years after a hurricane damaged them. One of it's potential positives was its historic (albeit run down) buildings. Now most of those have been torn down. It's sad that we will remain the least desirable  city for redevelopment. Why is it this way?

[heights unknown]

It could be a matter of leadership.

But if it was that, then why didn't Tampa have sooner?  Why don't we see this sort of density and activity in other well ran cities like Salt Lake, Providence, Fargo or Boulder?

IMHO there are 3 main drivers:
a) millennial coming of age; largest generation ever
b) foreign money
c) cheap capital

millennials are hitting their 40s and foreigners don't have capital that they're desperately trying to offshore ( buying US assets is offshore for them ).

It may not turn out to be a bubble in Tampa.  But don't be surprised to see that those 1/2 million dollar condos start selling for $300K in a few years.

for example
https://www.tampabay.com/news/business/realestate/foreign-real-estate-investors-funnel-millions-toward-tampa-bay-as-south/2166812/


So maybe in the end it's a matter of leadership.  Not a need for yet another riverwalk extension or saving some 83 year old bldg shell.  But leadership that can put together  and attract the big hitters needed to change the perception of Jacksonville that is required to attract those foreign buyers and Gen Z?

I still say a big part is leadership. We know that Jax is not Miami, Orlando, or Tampa, and overseas/foreign investors are not going to really take a long look, or even a short look at Jax in that investment arena. Well, if that is not Jax' niche, and platform for growth, success, etc., then find something else! Jax is too sleepy and no one wants to come to sleepiness or even gamble on sleepiness (build it and they will come?)...certainly not relative to Jax; build it in Jax, and not only will they not come, but it will probably sit half empty or be demolished for a parking lot in about 10 years. Yes, I believe it is in large part leadership; they certainly can do more regardless of what is happening in Tampa, Orlando, Miami and south Florida.

[Bativac]

Why is Jacksonville such a dump?  The city is not well kept. It hasn't even replaced the balustrades on Memorial Park three years after a hurricane damaged them. One of it's potential positives was its historic (albeit run down) buildings. Now most of those have been torn down. It's sad that we will remain the least desirable  city for redevelopment. Why is it this way?

The city has always been a dump. I grew up there and in the 80s it was worse than now in many areas...but the areas that looked worse are now vacant lots, so really it's just the illusion of looking better than it did then.

Parts of Springfield and Riverside have markedly improved, at least. But Jax has been a dump for a long long time. Even when they fix things (Friendship Fountain, the Riverwalk, Kids Kampus just to name the first three that immediately jumped to mind) the city fails to maintain them and they fall into disrepair fairly quickly.

But "the city" can only take so much of the blame. If enough residents cared, the city would see to it that it was less of a dump. Those of us who try to make any kind of a difference tend to get frustrated, give up and leave.

[jaxlongtimer]

Why is Jacksonville such a dump?  The city is not well kept. It hasn't even replaced the balustrades on Memorial Park three years after a hurricane damaged them. One of it's potential positives was its historic (albeit run down) buildings. Now most of those have been torn down. It's sad that we will remain the least desirable  city for redevelopment. Why is it this way?

It's "good ol boy" leadership that is more or less happy with the status quo of leading for the connected few rather than the overall community.  Just look at zoning decisions, allocation of tax dollars in City contracts and for favored projects, road building and other infrastructure projects, etc.  And, when is the last time you saw a long term vision/master plan for the City that actually was adhered to?  Ever see the power brokers pushing for that?

This same group also likes low taxes so things either get done here on the cheap if done at all or we are looking for saviors like Khan to bail us out with pie-in-the-sky projects that often fleece the few dollars left for rank and file taxpayers.  Since these power brokers are benefiting disproportionately from what is collected, they don't feel the impact of impaired city services.  Their kids are in private schools so they aren't focused much on the public schools (this goes back to the 1950's and the 1960's when the entire school system was dis-accredited and, in an effort to protect private JU, obtaining a public 4 year university was not pushed for).  Cities with top educational opportunities are typically thriving more than those that don't have them.  For decades Jacksonville has lost out on attracting world class minds and personal energy due to its less than ideal educational opportunities.  Our lack of a wide range of top graduate level programs adds to the lack of cutting edge thinking here.

Ultimately, it's the uninvolved, uncaring, uninformed and/or uneducated voters that keep electing poor leadership.  They get snookered by promises of "ol fashioned" social mores that aren't normally in play in City issues (i.e. fixing potholes is not a partisan issue), who comes across as being more pious, tough law and order pronouncements, low tax promises, voting for whoever puts up the most signs or runs the nastiest TV ads (='s who has the most dollars from the good ol boys to pay for them) and voting for the "R" or "D" by the candidate's name rather than who is most qualified to do what is best for the whole city.

But if it was that, then why didn't Tampa have sooner?  Why don't we see this sort of density and activity in other well ran cities like Salt Lake, Providence, Fargo or Boulder?

Having been to Providence, I would say that City's downtown seemed pretty vibrant.  It had high end retail stores, lots of residential development and a happening scene.  Its buildings may not be the tallest but the core appeared to be bustling all day long implying some degree of density relative to its population base.  Certainly had a lot more going for it than more populous Jacksonville.

[thelakelander]

Same goes for Salt Lake City and Boulder. Both of those central business districts are pretty vibrant. Bad use of them to attempt to prove that point.

[thelakelander]

A few images of Downtown Boulder from the Modern Cities photo archives page:

[Peter Griffin]

Boulder is beautiful, and also incredibly affluent. I've visited and was very impressed by the streetscape. The amount of money there is palpable. The Denver area in general is really impressive in its recent growth

[heights unknown]

Boulder looks super and awesome. Though I like tall and supertall buildings (heights unknown), I would trade tall buildings for low height density and vibrancy any day. Super post Lake on Tampa, and I don't care what anyone says, to me, what they have done and are doing looks very well thought out and planned. And their Riverwalk looks much better than Jax's, and, you can see it was well thought out, planned, and is connected with numerous and various parks, and other significant public locations in the downtown. I live close to Tampa 50 miles south and go there often; exploding in my opinion in Tampa; St. Pete may not be exploding, but they have a dense, vibrant downtown. The skyscrapers are mostly residential with more residentials in the planning for the immediate future. Even Sarasota, within a handful of miles from me, is vibrant, dense, and everything seems well planned, thought out, with a focus on who or what the city is, and has been. I love Jax. I will move back if the world, and/or the U.S.A. doesn't incinerate; have to put that on hold for now due to COVID and family issues. I just wish the leadership of Jax would help to push and move the city in a more prosperous direction both in downtown and the city as a whole. If I were looking to move to Jax and had never been there, and saw a population of over 900,000, I would be excited; but I would also be disappointed when I got to Jax and saw that there is very little in the way of shopping, entertainment, etc., especially in the urban core and downtown; downtown is usually, and should be (and historically) the heart of any city in my opinion.