A Look at the Emerald Necklace Trails Master Plan

[fieldafm]

^ I never characterized the Skyway as a "Corrine Brown pork barrel project."  I did say she promoted it which you just backed up and admitted that she was responsible for a large (50+%?) portion of today's Skyway investment.  I also allowed that others were aligned with her including the usual group of politically involved  "business leaders" which I identified as her "Republican Friends" as it is well known she was the rare Democrat who catered to their interests.  I am happy to add other "co-conspirators" to the list with your assistance and agree there is plenty of blame to go around.  Ms. Brown just happened to be the most modern face of the project which she appeared to relish.  If one wants credit for the "good" they also have to take the blame.

Comparing the payback for Metro Park to the Skyway is false equivalency.  Different agencies, different project, different issues.  Metro Park was supposed to be a park in perpetuity, not a demonstration project of limited life.  Metro Park's demise is on the table to benefit a private billionaire developer, Mr. Khan, at the expense of the public.  Doing away with the Skyway is just the opposite as it would stop the bleeding of the public.

Curry has successfully milked the Federal teat for hundreds of millions of dollars for the port, JTA projects, Hart Bridge ramp removal, interstate construction projects, the innovation corridor, hurricane relief, COVID relief, and more.  The Skyway Forgiveness Dollars, whatever the final number is, pale in comparison.  You can't convince me that, politically, Trump of all people, along wtih DeSantis, can't be persuaded to waive the penalties on the Skyway for our kiss-ass mayor.  Further, as noted by bl8jaxnative, eliminating the cost of continuing the operations of the Skyway would provide a pretty quick payback if the penalty was paid in full.

P.S. If you look at the hundreds of millions of dollars Curry has found, or plans on finding, for the Landing, the Hart Bridge ramps, City Hall/Courthouse demolitions, Lot J incentives, port dredging, paying off the police and fire for the fake pension reform, etc. the City could find the dollars for this.  Not so much in comparison.

I think you are conflating a lot of grievances together.

I'm the last person that will defend Corrine Brown or JTA.  The Downtown People Mover was a project advanced by and secured federal funds under two Democratic mayoral administrations (and a Democratic Senator). It was a pork barrel project for sure, but shoehorning some political party debate into the failure that is the Skyway (and there are multiple reasons for its failure) takes the conversation off the rails.

I brought up the MetroPark repayment, not to compare dollar amounts, but to give a local example of how the federal government definitely requires payback when the contractual terms are no longer being met. There seems to be this notion prevalent in this thread, that State and Federal payback is some kind of false threat.  Its not.

You are also discounting the total breath of the payback obligation. The numbers I floated earlier are a few years old, but that isn't the only pot of money at stake. COJ and JTA also received an additional $25mm that is allocated to the U2C clown car boondoggle (which is just as much of a pork barrel debacle as the Skyway was). Those funds are tied into the Skyway conversion.  Shutting down the Skyway would also require that money to be paid back as well. JTA doesn't have $75mm in extra cash laying around to close up the Skyway and close up shop on their 'innovative' new baby, the U2C.

If you get the impression that Mayor Curry cares much about JTA... or that instead of positioning himself for any potential Presidential pardons, that he'll be swayed to use that political capital to lean into President Trump about forgiving some obligations towards the Skyway... then with all due respect, you may be misreading how this administration has operated over the last 6+ years.   

The more likely scenario, is that both Trump and DeSantis both propose some pretty large infrastructure projects at the Federal and State level in the very near future. Letting that much transportation-related cash just vanish, seems about as probable as me winning the lottery this week.

[Charles Hunter]

An incalculable factor in shutting down the Skyway and returning the money (as fieldafm said, where would it come from?) is the impact on future federal funding. Most highway funding is formula-driven - collect so much in gas tax, have a certain population, you get this much money. However, most transit funding is discretionary, especially for big projects like commuter rail or streetcar systems. How do you think FTA will look on asks from Jacksonville when they have requests for many times their available funding?

[jaxlongtimer]

An incalculable factor in shutting down the Skyway and returning the money (as fieldafm said, where would it come from?) is the impact on future federal funding. Most highway funding is formula-driven - collect so much in gas tax, have a certain population, you get this much money. However, most transit funding is discretionary, especially for big projects like commuter rail or streetcar systems.

The money at issue is pocket change in comparison to what Curry cough's up for other projects as I previously posted.  It's even less money to the Feds and the State who probably throw that much away every day on boondoggles somewhere in their jurisdictions.

Do you think this is really the first transportation or public works project these parties funded that someone walked away from after it failed or was outdated/outmoded? Or never completed (see Cross-Florida Barge Canal)?  Consider the removal of trolleys decades ago.  How about the billions just spent to replace LaGuardia airport in NYC?  It's also been noted several times on this blog about roads abandoned/removed due to changing times.  It's all part of the "circle of life."

Are you worried that the National Park Service won't invest in the area again because the City wants to walk away from Metro Park?  I note that, in spite of those intentions, the NPS just purchased another 2,500 acres for the Timucuan.  Didn't seem to hold them back.

Likewise, no way USDOT and FODT are going to penalize Jax in the future for a 30 to 40 year project that failed.  The City & JTA have proven they have bent over more than backwards to see it through.  If this was a private company, they would have either given up on it long ago or been driven into bankruptcy over it.  No way any private person would stick it out this long.  It's just silly to keep it going and insane to put even more money into it.

That aside, transportation allocations are very much driven by politics and politicking of elected officials, not some totally rational case and historic evaluation.  That's why Cecil Field was closed when it shouldn't have been and Alaska got funding for a real "bridge to nowhere."  It's also why the Hart Bridge ramps, the autonomous vehicles and the port dredging are plowing ahead, contrary facts be damned.  Exhibit A is that's why the Skyway got built in the first place!

I don't understand the undying loyalty some people have to promoting the continuation of the Skyway.  There is always a way out if the will is there.  The penalty money is not the real issue here.

How do you think FTA will look on asks from Jacksonville when they have requests for many times their available funding?

What do you think taxpayers, the Feds and the State think about spending $50 million to tear down the perfectly good Hart Bridge ramps they helped fund for no good reason?  And that's more than any Skyway penalty.  Don't hear any concerns about that.

[jaxlongtimer]

You are also discounting the total breath of the payback obligation. The numbers I floated earlier are a few years old, but that isn't the only pot of money at stake. COJ and JTA also received an additional $25mm that is allocated to the U2C clown car boondoggle (which is just as much of a pork barrel debacle as the Skyway was). Those funds are tied into the Skyway conversion.  Shutting down the Skyway would also require that money to be paid back as well. JTA doesn't have $75mm in extra cash laying around to close up the Skyway and close up shop on their 'innovative' new baby, the U2C.

Fieldafm, apologies.  Overlooked your post in replying to Mr. Hunter first  .

Looks like we agree on many things here.  No need to further beat the dead horse. 

I will only add to your comment quoted above, that if we closed down the Skyway and it killed the clown car project, that would be a double win to me and probably many taxpayers.  I say go for killing the Skyway even more in that case!

[thelakelander]

^But that double win could be a huge loss if you can't get worthwhile funding assistance for the things that do make sense because of a poor track record. In the grand scheme of things, both the Skyway and U2C are a drop in the bucket when it comes to transportation funding and assistance for projects throughout the region.

[Charles Hunter]

And all of the sums here would build miles and miles of Emerald Necklace ...  (trying to get this thread back on "track") 

[jaxlongtimer]

^....both the Skyway and U2C are a drop in the bucket when it comes to transportation funding and assistance for projects throughout the region.

LOL.  Then I guess the penalty for killing the Skyway is also a drop in the bucket?!  My point all along.

If USDOT, FDOT and JTA work the way described herein, then it comes down to bureaucrats and elected officials who are unable to deal with failure.  They should talk to Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos about that.  In the meantime, we taxpayers pay the price.

[thelakelander]

The most beneficial method would probably be to see how to take advantage of the existing transit infrastructure. Perhaps the rolling stock needs to be upgraded and the DIA land development strategy should be TOD oriented.....like it is in most cities with fixed transit. Allow your transportation infrastructure and land use development patterns to grow together and support one another. For that to happen, I think we have to consider a lot more than kill it or switch to AVs.

[marcuscnelson]

I can't say I expected my two-year-old post to spark this much debate. Might as well throw my present two cents in.

Given that we already have the infrastructure (I mean good lord, we just finished building a transportation center around it), I still think the Skyway is worth keeping. It just needs to be given the right level of consideration, care, and development. As with a lot of other things, competent leadership and proper planning goes an enormous distance in building a sustainable and useful urban circulator, and making our investments pay dividends for our people.

Now, given that this is Jacksonville, maybe it isn't completely out of the question to ask whether competent leadership will ever happen and thus whether we should maybe just dump the whole mess and forget about it.

[marcuscnelson]

As far as the actual topic of this post, it looks fine. Decent enough. Just get it done.

[JaGoaT]

I think the Main Street bridge should be closed and be pedestrian only and lead to a park on the south bank while also leading to the park where landing used to be