Marriott coming to downtown finally

[Steve]

How long can Marriott survive with empty hotels?

Likely longer than most other travel related companies. They own a small percentage of their hotels so their exposure is more limited than the Airlines and Rental Car companies, and certainly less than the cruise lines. My guess is for the time being they'll suspend franchisee payments, and that will be the extent of the help they provide those folks.

[heights unknown]

Came across renderings of the AC Hotel by Marriott planned at The District. Much smaller in height than the original proposals.

I can't help but find it funny how Gainesville is going to have a larger AC Marriott than downtown Jacksonville.

Now come on; why does that surprise you? I think Gainesville and Tallahassee are more of a major city than our Jax. It hurts me to say that, but we are so small minded; too scared to think big.

[marcuscnelson]

I can't help but find it funny how Gainesville is going to have a larger AC Marriott than downtown Jacksonville.

Now come on; why does that surprise you? I think Gainesville and Tallahassee are more of a major city than our Jax. It hurts me to say that, but we are so small minded; too scared to think big.

Didn't say it was surprising, just funny.

But yeah, seems fitting that the major college towns are getting more impressive than Jax is.

Hopefully by 2023, someone competent is running for Mayor and the economy is back on the upswing. Maybe by the end of the decade we could actually turn things around.

[avonjax]

Lenny's gonna leave that downtown skyline that no one is going to recognize. Just like he promised.  Just more empty lots is what I see. He's a horrible mayor. I will never accept the debacle of tearing down the Landing and leaving a hole on the riverfront that will remain that way through the rest of his term. When he runs for a higher office I hope people are reminded what a complete waste of taxpayer money he has been responsible for.  Every shot on the news or in commercials of downtown is either old with the Landing or shot toward the Southbank. He demolished the most iconic structure in DT. Empty holes on Bay Street, empty holes where Metro Park used to be. I won't go on. And with this economy for the next few months or even years.....Good Luck.

[jaxlongtimer]

To add to the history of the site in the article:

When the Sheraton opened, the white table cloth restaurant there was called the Admiralty Room.  The whole theme of the hotel was around the maritime industry that predated it on the site.  Haven't been in the building in years but there use to be a huge chrome plated ship's propeller in the lobby area to carry out the maritime theme.

Also, original to the Sheraton hotel was a row of shops along what is now the Riverwalk.  The original hotel had its own version of the Riverwalk.  One of the shops was a fancy kite shop. 

In the late 70's and early 80's the hotel had a daily "after-work" party called the River Rally at an outside bar that easily attracted hundreds or more Downtown area workers on a nice day.

The whole site on that section of the Southbank was jointly developed by Fruehauf Corporation* (a major manufacturer of truck trailers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruehauf_Trailer_Corporation ), who at the time owned Jacksonville Shipyards, and Gulf Life Insurance (who built Riverplace Tower as their HQ's).  The original development also included the Hilton Double Tree Hotel (ironically, originally built as a Hilton) alongside the Main Street Bridge.

I believe land held for future development also included the property extending to the School Board and land across the street fronting Riverplace Blvd. (originally Gulf Life Blvd.) that includes the Stein Mart Building and the 1300 Building.  It may have also included the Flagler Buildings and land fronting Prudential Drive but I can't recall for sure.  Based on the historic aerial, it would appear this is correct.

*More on Fruehauf and Jacksonville per Wikipedia:

The company declared bankruptcy on October 7, 1996. An axle plant in Ohio was sold to Holland Hitch Company on February 18, 1997, and Fruehauf's United States manufacturing and sales business was sold to Wabash National on March 17, 1997.[15] Prior to the bankruptcy, the Bellinger Shipyard owned by Fruehauf in Jacksonville, Florida, was sold to M. D. Moody & Sons, Inc. for $1.9 million in 1995 and then the Jacksonville Shipyard was sold to developers in 2014.[Per 16 cite this should be 1995] Companies in France, Mexico, New Zealand and Japan continued to operate under the Fruehauf name.[6][15]

[opfoodie]

To add to the history of the site in the article:

When the Sheraton opened, the white table cloth restaurant there was called the Admiralty Room.  The whole theme of the hotel was around the maritime industry that predated it on the site.  Haven't been in the building in years but there use to be a huge chrome plated ship's propeller in the lobby area to carry out the maritime theme.

Also, original to the Sheraton hotel was a row of shops along what is now the Riverwalk.  The original hotel had its own version of the Riverwalk.  One of the shops was a fancy kite shop. 

In the late 70's and early 80's the hotel had a daily "after-work" party called the River Rally at an outside bar that easily attracted hundreds or more Downtown area workers on a nice day.

The whole site on that section of the Southbank was jointly developed by Fruehauf Corporation* (a major manufacturer of truck trailers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruehauf_Trailer_Corporation ), who at the time owned Jacksonville Shipyards, and Gulf Life Insurance (who built Riverplace Tower as their HQ's).  The original development also included the Hilton Double Tree Hotel (ironically, originally built as a Hilton) alongside the Main Street Bridge.

I believe land held for future development also included the property extending to the School Board and land across the street fronting Riverplace Blvd. (originally Gulf Life Blvd.) that includes the Stein Mart Building and the 1300 Building.  It may have also included the Flagler Buildings and land fronting Prudential Drive but I can't recall for sure.  Based on the historic aerial, it would appear this is correct.

*More on Fruehauf and Jacksonville per Wikipedia:

The company declared bankruptcy on October 7, 1996. An axle plant in Ohio was sold to Holland Hitch Company on February 18, 1997, and Fruehauf's United States manufacturing and sales business was sold to Wabash National on March 17, 1997.[15] Prior to the bankruptcy, the Bellinger Shipyard owned by Fruehauf in Jacksonville, Florida, was sold to M. D. Moody & Sons, Inc. for $1.9 million in 1995 and then the Jacksonville Shipyard was sold to developers in 2014.[Per 16 site this should be 1995] Companies in France, Mexico, New Zealand and Japan continued to operate under the Fruehauf name.[6][15]

I fondly remember coming to the Riverwalk as a child in the early 80s to see the 4th of July fireworks, I remember the shops and the fancy kite shop in particular.  It was such a bustling area at the time. 

[thelakelander]

So what happened to the vibrancy? What killed it?

[bl8jaxnative]

Hotels like this change brands all the time.  This thing is 100% #MEH.

[Wacca Pilatka]

^ Seems to me the vibrancy was more a result of novelty.  The Riverwalk attracted a lot of visitors in the early days but it was essentially a place to stroll and eat, surrounded by a vertical office park.  Many of the features that were intended as part of the original Riverwalk plan were cut when it went over budget, as this site documented very well - the café under the Main Street bridge, the great lawn/amphitheater, the water feature in the river, the Wharf shopping area.  The Riverwalk and the Landing together, connected via water taxis, were conceived as a Baltimore Inner Harbor-type development, but the Inner Harbor had other attractions like the aquarium, the historic ships, and the Maryland Science Center to complement walking around and shopping, to say nothing of its larger concentration of hotels and the easy connectivity to dense and walkable neighborhoods with many restaurants, bars, and clubs to attract tourists.  The Rouse proposal for the Landing recommended incorporating an aquarium and moving an art museum to the riverfront, and not just having a stand-alone boardwalk and festival marketplace.  Of course the convention center was expected to be in the downtown core at the time Rouse made its proposal too.

Also, in the late 1980s, several of the Southbank's largest office tenants, most notably Gulf Life, pulled out or were acquired.  That seemingly sucked the life out of the hotels too.  By the early 1990s, the Gulf Life Building and some of the other Southbank office buildings (the one were Suddath is now, for instance) were largely vacant; the hotels that are now the Doubletree and Lexington were both operating as independents with uninspiring names ("The Jacksonville Hotel On The River" was one of them), and one eventually closed for several years.  Some of the shops at the former Sheraton did hang on into the late 90s, though.  It's sad to me to see those buildings vacant now; it was once such a nice, resort-like property. 

Even though the hotels are back with brand nameplates and the office buildings are occupied again, and there are residential buildings along the Riverwalk that weren't there in the 80s, it seems like most visitors to the area drive in, eat at the Chart House or Ruth's Chris or River City, and drive out.  Lack of connectivity and a pedestrian unfriendly environment are a big part of the problem, I'm sure.

Incidentally, the chrome propeller is still there, outside the main entrance to the hotel.

[Steve]

Hotels like this change brands all the time.  This thing is 100% #MEH.

I'd normally agree but it's significant that the Marriott name - the #1 brand in hotels, is downtown for the first time in....maybe ever?

Sort of sad to finally hit that milestone but you have to crawl.

[thelakelander]

^Pretty much. It will be nice to have that brand in downtown. Kind of crazy to think that it has taken this long.

^ Seems to me the vibrancy was more a result of novelty.  The Riverwalk attracted a lot of visitors in the early days but it was essentially a place to stroll and eat, surrounded by a vertical office park.  Many of the features that were intended as part of the original Riverwalk plan were cut when it went over budget, as this site documented very well - the café under the Main Street bridge, the great lawn/amphitheater, the water feature in the river, the Wharf shopping area.  The Riverwalk and the Landing together, connected via water taxis, were conceived as a Baltimore Inner Harbor-type development, but the Inner Harbor had other attractions like the aquarium, the historic ships, and the Maryland Science Center to complement walking around and shopping, to say nothing of its larger concentration of hotels and the easy connectivity to dense and walkable neighborhoods with many restaurants, bars, and clubs to attract tourists.  The Rouse proposal for the Landing recommended incorporating an aquarium and moving an art museum to the riverfront, and not just having a stand-alone boardwalk and festival marketplace.  Of course the convention center was expected to be in the downtown core at the time Rouse made its proposal too.

Also, in the late 1980s, several of the Southbank's largest office tenants, most notably Gulf Life, pulled out or were acquired.  That seemingly sucked the life out of the hotels too.  By the early 1990s, the Gulf Life Building and some of the other Southbank office buildings (the one were Suddath is now, for instance) were largely vacant; the hotels that are now the Doubletree and Lexington were both operating as independents with uninspiring names ("The Jacksonville Hotel On The River" was one of them), and one eventually closed for several years.  Some of the shops at the former Sheraton did hang on into the late 90s, though.  It's sad to me to see those buildings vacant now; it was once such a nice, resort-like property. 

Even though the hotels are back with brand nameplates and the office buildings are occupied again, and there are residential buildings along the Riverwalk that weren't there in the 80s, it seems like most visitors to the area drive in, eat at the Chart House or Ruth's Chris or River City, and drive out.  Lack of connectivity and a pedestrian unfriendly environment are a big part of the problem, I'm sure.

Incidentally, the chrome propeller is still there, outside the main entrance to the hotel.

Corporate consolidations aside (because most cities had to overcome this in the 1980s and 90s), it seems like we never kept adding to the atmosphere, taking advantage of the novelty when it was there. Sort of like aging theme parks adding new rides and attractions to draw visitors back. Baltimore is a good example. They kept adding incrementally within a compact area instead of resting on their original laurels. They're still adding today.

[Wacca Pilatka]

Very true.  Not everything Baltimore added worked (the Power Plant indoor theme park, the Gallery mall), but they've constantly added beyond just relying on Harborplace and the Aquarium to bring people back.  Walkability is a big factor too.  You can easily walk between Inner Harbor and other appealing, pedestrian-centric neighborhoods like Federal Hill, Fells Point, and Little Italy.  Jacksonville has some terrific neighborhoods that would attract visitors, but they aren't contiguous with the waterfront core area.  If San Marco and Southbank eventually fuse together into one contiguous, walkable area, maybe we'd be in business.  And if we could do something about those giant parking lots that separate the two hotels from Riverplace.  Obviously Baltimore has its convention center and sports district right there in the core adjacent to Inner Harbor too.

I think this is indeed the first time ever that Marriott has been downtown.  Of course the Trio hotel is supposed to be a Courtyard, and a high-rise Marriott was planned in the 90s as a Bucky Clarkson-developed neighbor to the Prime Osborn (falling through after the city subsidized the Adam's Mark instead).

[thelakelander]

Walkability is a big factor too.  You can easily walk between Inner Harbor and other appealing, pedestrian-centric neighborhoods like Federal Hill, Fells Point, and Little Italy.  Jacksonville has some terrific neighborhoods that would attract visitors, but they aren't contiguous with the waterfront core area.

At the time of MOSH, the Prime Osborn and  Landing openings, LaVilla, Brooklyn and the Cathedral District were. Unfortunately, the civic leaders at that time viewed these neighborhoods as detriments instead of assets. One can only imagine what a place as unique and historically interesting as LaVilla would be today if we would have left it alone in the 1980s and 90s.

[Wacca Pilatka]

^ Yes, very true.  I often think LaVilla would be the arts hub of Jacksonville now had so much of it not been razed.  I have Adrian Pickett's "Harlem of the South" print on my wall by my desk and it reminds me of this every day.  So does every time I see what Deep Ellum in Dallas, Sweet Auburn in Atlanta, etc. have become, and LaVilla has greater historical significance than either of them.

Plus those Atlantic terminals.  What a wonderful public market that could have become! 

80s and early 90s Jacksonville unfortunately treated LaVilla as a scary place worthy of destruction.  Somewhere I have a downtown attractions guide from that era that lists the old Irene Perfume factory tour in LaVilla as an attraction, followed by a lengthy "lock your doors and travel with a buddy!" screed that would deter any visitor.

[jaxlongtimer]

So what happened to the vibrancy? What killed it?

I would add a few more thoughts to other comments:

* The hotel's river walk didn't connect to anything until many years later.  And, like the Hemming Plaza and Skyway projects, when the City's river walk project comes around, the fact that it takes several years of construction to be completed kills off everything contiguous to the project that was vibrant.  Of course, there was no other connectivity to anything else either.
* The hotel parking lot couldn't park enough cars to support the numbers of people needed to sustain the shops, hotel and the hotel restaurants (many times there were no spaces left just based on the River Rallies).  There was nowhere else to park at the time beyond the hotel lot.
* The hotel was probably more uptown than Jacksonville could sustainably support at the time (note the turnovers of the Hilton and Adams Mark over the years.  Only the Omni, that arrived years later, has stood the test of time in that genre in the urban core).
* The Southbank was more of an outlier at the time (on a City wide basis) vs. more robust activity on the Northbank (how the tables may have turned!).  Then, for a while, both sides of the river entered doldrums.
* A good part of the property's business came from Northbank companies and employees.  With the gradual demise of much of the Northbank's corporate HQ's and more, the hotel lost much of its constituency.  The addition of the Omni on the Northbank probably ate into much of what was left from that side of the river.
* The river's industrial reputation (read as: polluted) didn't exactly draw much attention to what lied along its banks so it wasn't that special to have access to it.  The Jacksonville Shipyards directly across the river were still functioning, too, not making for the most attractive scenery (although it was interesting to observe the ships coming in and out!).
* In some ways, I also think the arrival of the Chart House and Crawdaddy's actually pulled the spotlight away from the hotel (plus added to the aforementioned parking issues).  Crawdaddy's was very successful but mainly failed because its corporate parent ran it into the ground on the way to bankruptcy.  Nothing ever took its place until the apartments there now.  I actually think Chart House survives in great part on its recognition by out-of-towners (its a chain) and it's amazing wood work/architecture.  (That building needs to be preserved if Chart House ever closes.)
* With Fruehuaf selling out and Gulf Life leaving town, the original master developers' commitment went away.  The undeveloped properties were likely sold off in pieces just to liquidate their assets removing any commitment to a private master plan.
* And, the usual suspect:  The City of Jacksonville had no (and still doesn't have) a master plan for any of these situations to optimize opportunities for development and/or poorly executes on whatever it attempts.  Eventually, activity fades away if random luck doesn't take over.