The Ford on Bay

[bl8jaxnative]

Yes Jax has a population of 1.5 million but to me that number doesn't reflect reality.  My friends in St Johns County do not consider themselves part of metro Jacksonville, even if the government does.  At best, they work in southern Duval County (Gate Parkway/Deerwood/Baymeadows) but that is it.  They don't do anything else in Jax and now with Durbin Creek they have even less reason to cross the County line.

That's not any different from anyplace else.   If you look at other edge counties, the have the same outcomes.

For example, iuf you look at place like York County, SC.  It's suburban Charlotte.  70% of it's residents work in the county.  And what ones that do leave the county for work, 40% don't leave the state.  The few that work in Charlotte work on the fringe.  There's no daily connection with the core city for most of their residents.

You'll find similar situations in St. Croix county, WI, Waukesha County, Wisconsin, or Williamson County, Tennessee.

[thelakelander]

You'll find similar situations in South Florida, New York, Detroit, Chicago, LA, Dallas and even Greenville. Yeah, it's no different than any place else.

[MusicMan]

What about all the Duval residents streaming down to Durbin Creek to get their mall fix? LOL

[thelakelander]

Houston, we have a problem....

Probably would have been good to figure out Hyatt's first right of refusal before coming up with alternative ideas for the property and seeking developers for them. Anyway, just more time in the condition we mentioned DT needed to avoid back before the city hall annex implosion a few years back. Another big empty space in the heart of downtown that's void of people for the foreseeable future.

The DIA is negotiating a term sheet with Spandrel for the Phase I of The Ford on Bay development that has to work around the Hyatt's first right of refusal.

Boyer said in a July 13 phone interview that the city has not secured an agreement with Hyatt for the property.

Phase I of the development at 330 E. Bay St. can proceed without the hotel's approval.

Rensing said Westmont has no intent of giving up its contractual rights to the parcel for Spandrel's proposal.

He said the Jacobs team met Westmont representatives as recently as last week.

Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jacobs-engineering-pushes-for-dollar550-million-convention-center-at-the-ford-on-bay

[Steve]

Jacobs is nothing if not persistent. Wow.

I mean, I'm not sure where the $550M is coming from, but I mean we have to consider this.

[thelakelander]

The solution to me is to work with both for an integrated project because neither are truly feasible alone.

1. There is no market for the 74,000 square feet of retail proposed by Spandrel's stick frame project.
2. There is no market for an 843,000 square foot convention center and new convention center hotel in DT Jax.

Revamp the Hyatt, scrap the new convention center hotel and add an exhibition hall in the range of 100 to 150k square feet. Via air rights and the rest of the property, multifamily housing can be added. Also, retail can be added at strategic ground level locations throughout the two blocks.

[Captain Zissou]

Who would want to do business with COJ after seeing this unfold?  Jacobs wins RFP, city scraps RFP, Spandrel wins new RFP, city doesn't have the ability to honor the agreement. 

[Papa33]

The solution to me is to work with both for an integrated project because neither are truly feasible alone.

1. There is no market for the 74,000 square feet of retail proposed by Spandrel's stick frame project.
2. There is no market for an 843,000 square foot convention center and new convention center hotel in DT Jax.

Revamp the Hyatt, scrap the new convention center hotel and add an exhibition hall in the range of 100 to 150k square feet. Via air rights and the rest of the property, multifamily housing can be added. Also, retail can be added at strategic ground level locations throughout the two blocks.

This sounds way too reasonable.

[downtownbrown]

this is just noise.  Boyer has already showed her hand.

[itsfantastic1]

Who would want to do business with COJ after seeing this unfold?  Jacobs wins RFP, city scraps RFP, Spandrel wins new RFP, city doesn't have the ability to honor the agreement.

It's easier here

[thelakelander]

this is just noise.  Boyer has already showed her hand.

Everyone knows they want to go with Spandrel and avoid the convention center issue altogether with Khan floating a similar financially irresponsible proposal at the stadium. Nevertheless, how do they get Hyatt (Jacob's partner) to void their legally binding first right of refusal on the property?

[Steve]

this is just noise.  Boyer has already showed her hand.

Everyone knows they want to go with Spandrel and avoid the convention center issue altogether with Khan floating a similar financially irresponsible proposal at the stadium. Nevertheless, how do they get Hyatt (Jacob's partner) to void their legally binding first right of refusal on the property?

This is the issue. I actually don't believe Boyer has shown her hand. I believe Boyer has been attempting to be as politically pragmatic as she can without pissing off the Mayor's office.

It wasn't Boyer that pushed the Convention Center by the stadium thing, it was Brian Hughes and the Mayor. I'm guessing neither Hughes nor Curry knew about the first right of refusal that the Hyatt ownership had (many of us on here knew though I didn't know the specifics).

I'm not sure what they do here. I think the best thing would be for Spandrel to get with the Hyatt ownership/Jacobs and make something work here. Perhaps they build a convention center with clear air rights to Spandrel.

[Ken_FSU]

Hilariously Jacksonville shell game here.

- City issues an RFP for an obscenely expensive convention center at the old Courthouse site, assuming someone else will pay for it
- Jacobs brings a team of 30 for their presentation; wins the bid
- Jags randomly submit an unsolicited bid for a second (?) convention center on contaminated Shipyards land
- Rimrock Devlin then submits their own unsolicited bid for mixed-use on the old Courthouse site, jusssssst in case the city decides to fuck over the firms that participated and reject all bids
- City claims to suddenly realize that an obscenely expensive convention center will, in fact, be obscenely expensive; rejects bid, citing a DIA study that took place years before the RFP went out about how Jacksonville isn't ready for a convention center
- Everyone pretends to ignore the fact that Cordish's six trillion dollar plan for the Shipyards includes the same obscenely expensive convention center that the city couldn't afford at the other property, only shifted down the river onto contaminated land unfit for human survival
- Old Courthouse site is RFP'd again, this time for mixed use; city anticipates international interest in the property; high-rise residential and mixed use. No one seems concerned that the city doesn't technically have the right to develop a sizable percentage of the property.
- Only two firms bid, offering stick-frame suburban apartments on a parcel of land the city has spent five years and $80 million to ready for a convention center
- After being foiled by an unsolicited proposal from the Jags, a slighted firm re-emerges - BY GAWD! That's Jacobs' music! - to offer their OWN unsolicited proposal, in the middle of a worldwide pandemic, to build a different version of the obscenely expensive convention center on the site. Their evil partner unmasks, revealing that Hyatt has been pulling the strings all along (e.g. exercising their contractual right of first refusal).
- Four months after awarding Spandrel development rights of Phase I, no development agreement is in place for the portion of the property that the city does own.

[downtownbrown]

So how long will it take to get this settled after everyone decides to sue everyone else?

[itsfantastic1]

Is there any precedence for building apartments into a convention center.

Seems like an "easy" solution could be to replace the hotel tower in Jacobs, with multi-story apartments and let Spandrel own those while also developing the 1st parcel (behind Hyatt) they want by giving up the second (fronting the river) for the Jacobs convention center.

Also, has first right of refusal ever been overturned legally? Only way I see Spandrel getting the Hyatt parcel would be eminent domain from the city, (which will undoubtedly trigger expensive lawsuits) or the city paying an absurd amount of money to Hyatt so that it makes a better business case to Hyatt to sell.