FBC threatens lawsuit if not allowed to historic demolish building

[bl8jaxnative]

Does this building have any current designations?  Is it part of any special districts?  Or is the only issue in play this new landmark designation?

[Steve]

It's currently a contributing structure to the National Register of Historic Places Downtown Historic District.

[bl8jaxnative]

Thank you.   

I should've added the reason I was asking was to understand what the significance of the bldg in legal terms, so to speak, would've been at the time they were making their architectural drawings.

Since it was already part of that, surely they knew it was historically significant.

[thelakelander]

This should have been vetted before the pastor showed the congregation renderings of their consolidation plan last fall. So it sounds like they didn't know, didn't care or ignored it. So it's a self creating hardship that now becomes the centerpiece of their argument to raze.

[Bill Hoff]

HPC denied the demolition tonight, 5-2 vote. The case for landmarking the building will be heard at next month's HPC meeting.

FBC brought in a handful of very reputable people to advocate for the demo, along with dozens of fire & brimstone types. The #mappingjax group brought an eclectic mix of roughly the same number of people in opposition.

[thelakelander]

Fire and brimstones, singing, public prayer and even very reputable people advocating demo all have very little to do with determining if a building meets the necessary landmark designation criteria. Good to see what grass roots community can help accomplish when organized. Keep the emotions out of it, stay in alignment with the policies, advocate for adaptive reuse and push forward with continuing to contact commission members and council representatives.

[thelakelander]

First Baptist Church denied demolition permit for Downtown building

The Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission voted Feb. 26 to deny First Baptist Church a permit to demolish its Downtown building at 125 W. Church St., but the fate of the structure may not yet be decided.

More than 100 people attended the public hearing to show support both for and against the demolition. The meeting was moved to a larger space to handle the crowd.

The vote was 5-2. Commissioners Jack C. Demetree III, Andres Lopera, Erik Kasper, Timothy Bramwell and Maiju Stansel voted to deny the permit. Ryan Davis and Max Glober voted against.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/first-baptist-church-denied-demolition-permit-for-downtown-building

[thelakelander]

Update: FBC's appeal to have council decide on the demo without going through HPC was approved 4-2 by LUZ tonight. FBC doesn't have the money to do what they want to do, so if full council approves their demolition request next week, we could very well likely be looking at another vacant lot in the heart of downtown once FBC goes belly up and moves to Nocatee.

[acme54321]

When does it go to council?

[thelakelander]

Tuesday 6/23.

[billy]

Is there a precedent for bypassing historic preservation?
Does this involve a landmark building?

[thelakelander]

Is there a precedent for bypassing historic preservation?

Probably so. There were landmarked building in LaVilla that were razed anyway back in the 1990s.

Unfortunately, many LUZ members don't even understand the city's preservation policies themselves. Several some even questioned if the building was so important, why wasn't it already landmarked. The problem with asking such a question is it is the council who has the power to sponsor landmarking. Which means council members need to ask themselves why they aren't proactively sponsoring bills to landmark the city's unprotected historic structures. Instead, we have a broken system that does not allow the community to do so, meaning the community has to take free time out of its day to persuade them to do their job.

Does this involve a landmark building?

This building is a contributing structure to the Downtown National Register Historic District. This means when someone decides they want to demolish it, HPC has the option to review it for local landmark status. In this situation, it is historically significant, and likely meets 5 or 6 of the 7 criteria needed for local landmarking. You only need to meet 2 if the owner is supportive and 4 if the owner does not. To circumvent the landmarking process, FBC hired a politically connected attorney to appeal to the council instead. The Council's LUZ committee approved their appeal 4-2. One committee member went as far to say old buildings frustrate him and he wants to help the church out. So you're in a world of trouble for protecting downtown's integrity when the decision maker isn't willing to fully understand the own policies that previous councils have created.

On the opposite angle, COJ has demonstrated its willing to pick and choose winners and losers in the demolition and landmarking game. Both FBC and the Bostwick family were poor stewarts of their downtown properties. Both have applied to demolish their structures as opposed to selling them. The Bostwick's were denied, their property landmarked against their will and then foreclosed on. COJ then took the property and sold it to a developer who restored it into Cowford Chophouse. FBC has no money, a declining membership and collection plate. Yet, we're circumventing the process to throw them a bone to raze, knowing full good and well, we could end up looking at another empty lot.

There may be some back of the hand way to appeal or file a suit from a community perspective, but I haven't dived into the details of such a strategy to know if it would possibly work to change the way the city operates long term. The biggest problem is we don't vote, groom or back people who know know planning and preservation policy, so we're technically responsible for the clown shows that come when decision makers are unprepared or unwilling to learn the ins and outs.

[Steve]

If the vote was 4-2, without looking I'm going to say that Becton, Ferraro, White and Gaffney voted for this with Pittman and Boylan voting against. I'm also going to say it was either Becton or Ferraro that made the comment about old buildings frustrating him.

Can anyone confirm?

Boylan is the new chair of LUZ starting 7/1 so I'm hoping I'm right that Boylan didn't vote for this. If I'm wrong than we may have a rough year on the preservation front.

[thelakelander]

Becton, Boylan, Dennis and Ferraro for and Gaffney and White against. However, Gaffney was the one who said old buildings frustrate him. That's rough since his district covers the oldest areas of the city. I predict that it will be a rough year. From my perspective, people in the community who care about preservation with need to get more aggressive and preemptive to landmark as many buildings as possible. This clearly won't be led by city hall. However, they may jump on board (like their doing with the confederate monument and names stuff) if they feel the political tide is turning in that direction.

[vicupstate]

From my perspective, people in the community who care about preservation with need to get more aggressive and preemptive to landmark as many buildings as possible.

Sounds like a job for the Jacksonville Historical Society.

Careful you don't spit your coffee out laughing at that comment.