Greenville SC Developments

[thelakelander]

Made it there too. Had a quick meal in Optimist Hall. Excellent rehab job:



Ended up driving around NODA a bit to see how things had changed since my previous visit to the area several years ago. Also, stopped at a 24 hour cafe/bakery (Amelie's?) in the area that had pretty good desserts.

[jaxlongtimer]

So. Carolina is on fire.  Greenville, Columbia, Charleston, Spartanburg...

In looking at a map, the mid-point of SC is about 600 miles from So. Florida and about the same from the New York area.  Logistically, I could see the state giving Atlanta a run for the money over the next 50 years or so (Atl has 3 interstates, 2 of which run straight into SC, and so does Columbia + the port of Charleston).  And, SC has the coast, low country and foothills to Appalachia to add some geographic interest and a bit better winter climate.

What SC is missing is Atlanta's airport but, with Boeing in Charleston and every flight up and down the East Coast flying over the state, maybe that will change someday too  .  SC also needs to spend major dollars on upgrading their interstates, the worst I have seen just about anywhere.

[jaxnyc79]

I've always been confident in the idea of mass transit as economic/development stimulus, but the light rail here and the relatively recent extension of the light rail north of uptown Charlotte, including through NODA, make me a total disciple.  To think, the Better Jax Plan had funding for light rail real estate acquisition and perhaps a design study...could have been transformational for Jax.  Planning initiatives here become vast, community-wide dialogues among tons of interest groups.  Currently, a complete re-work of the zoning code is in development and expected to be put in front of Council late this year.  A part of that project has already happened with a mass rezoning along the light rail line, making over 1770+ acres and over 1500 parcels a designated TOD district.  Witnessing first-hand what's happening in Charlotte has made me realize that downtown vibrancy isn't so much about level of demand or RFPs or even Incentives packages, but consistent, and inclusionary leadership.

[thelakelander]

We squandered that $100 million from the BJP. I suspect it ended up being used to pay for the country courthouse's bloated budget. Same thing happened to Orlando back in the 1990s. Their lost LRT money went to build Charlotte's initial LRT line. That missed opportunity appears to have changed Orlando's perspective. However, it was a generational miss. 20 years have passed already.

[Kerry]

This picture says it all. Three more cranes than DT Jax (4 if you exclude Brooklyn)....

And right behind where that photo was taken from is going to be the $1 billion County Square development.

[krazeeboi]

Greenville has a couple of factors working in its favor compared to Jacksonville here.

Firstly, Greenville has taken an approach to maintaining/improving its fiscal health that's almost the exact opposite of consolidation. Although Greenville's urbanized area population along with that of adjacent suburban Mauldin-Simpsonville (they are effectively a single urbanized area but the criteria governing the designation of urbanized areas prevent them from combining or merging) is about 521K according to the official 2010 figures, and Greenville is the largest commercial hub and primary city of its MSA consisting of 907K people and a CSA (which includes the neighboring Spartanburg MSA) of 1.5M, city leaders have deliberately chosen to keep the city artificially small at roughly 70 square miles with around 70K residents. This is partially the result of SC's rather strict annexation laws that make it difficult for municipalities to expand their borders (properties to be annexed must be contiguous with the city's current borders and it's practically impossible for annexation to occur without the consent of property owners), so Greenville chose to be more strategic in its annexation efforts by mainly targeting undeveloped tracts that were slated to be developed as well as sizable commercial areas which have a larger net financial benefit for the city. This allowed city leaders to invest heavily in downtown which is the only urban district in the city; there are no smaller neighborhood commercial districts like San Marco and Riverside in Jacksonville. Using a combination of standard public investment (roads, sidewalks, parks, etc.), TIF districts, and public-private partnerships for anchor developments, the city really primed the pump for private dollars to flow into downtown and the results have been tremendous.

Secondly, downtown Greenville is relatively compact with a small footprint so it takes fewer developments to have a big impact on the cityscape. Historically it was the textile industry that undergirded the local economy and today it is more reliant on industries that require a lot of space and typically locate in the suburbs (manufacturing, warehousing, engineering, call centers/back office operations), so the city was blessed to not have a bunch of office towers with blank walls thrown up in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, destroying what little historic urban fabric it did have. Main Street was ideally suited for revitalization because for the most part, it retained a continuous streetwall of historic commercial spaces for several blocks.

Thirdly, Greenville has been blessed with long-term visionary and progressive leadership who were consistent in their efforts to revitalize downtown. It all started with late Mayor Max Heller, who was a native of Vienna, Austria and wanted a revitalized downtown that would resemble a European pedestrian-friendly village. He got the ball rolling in the 70s and served two terms in office (1971-1979). The late Mayor Bill Workman was elected in 1983 and he moved downtown Greenville forward by overseeing the construction of major anchors like the Peace Center for the Performing Arts and the Bi-Lo Arena while also being a major force for regional economic development. After three terms in office, Mayor Knox White succeeded him in 1995 and has been in office since, and it's clear that his major priority has been  shepherding downtown Greenville into a new stratum.

Lastly, I'd say the relatively uniform culture and political ideology of the Upstate has been a major positive factor for downtown also. Historically the region has been conservative and predominantly White (especially compared to the larger cities in SC) so the liberal/conservative, urban/suburban, White/Black, etc clashes that you see in a lot of other places were completely absent in Greenville. Downtown is embraced by the entire region and is pretty popular with families. Personally, I prefer a downtown with some rough edges, a greater diversity of people from all walks of life, and a variety of businesses and establishments that can sometimes clash visually and aesthetically yet still coexist in the same space; that's not really how downtown Greenville is set up which sometimes causes folks to criticize it as "Disneyfied" or overly engineered, which I can somewhat understand. But when it comes to a city that made revitalization a goal and has actively worked towards that end by identifying exactly the types of amenities and assets it wanted and partnering with the right entities to make it happen, Greenville is by far one of the best examples of such in the country and is consistently highlighted as a model.

[vicupstate]

^^ Well stated Krazzeeboi.

One thing you didn't mention that did play a part was the vision and involvement of a handful of business titans that helped things along. This article highlights one such family, The Wyches.

     
https://greenvillejournal.com/news/delve-series-wyche-family/

[Kerry]

Thanks for the info and insight krazeeboi.

[krazeeboi]

^^ Well stated Krazzeeboi.

One thing you didn't mention that did play a part was the vision and involvement of a handful of business titans that helped things along. This article highlights one such family, The Wyches.

     
https://greenvillejournal.com/news/delve-series-wyche-family/

Very true. City leaders have been very successful with getting the business community on board with downtown revitalization and that's the other side of the coin of public-private partnerships. Having multinational corporation offices and large manufacturing facilities in the region is also a big source of philanthropy.

[Kerry]

^^ Well stated Krazzeeboi.

One thing you didn't mention that did play a part was the vision and involvement of a handful of business titans that helped things along. This article highlights one such family, The Wyches.

     
https://greenvillejournal.com/news/delve-series-wyche-family/

Very true. City leaders have been very successful with getting the business community on board with downtown revitalization and that's the other side of the coin of public-private partnerships. Having multinational corporation offices and large manufacturing facilities in the region is also a big source of philanthropy.

That was one of the keys to OKC's success as well  The business community stepped up big time.  Same goes for Omaha, Kansas City, Detroit, and others.

[Snaketoz]

^^ Well stated Krazzeeboi.

One thing you didn't mention that did play a part was the vision and involvement of a handful of business titans that helped things along. This article highlights one such family, The Wyches.

     
https://greenvillejournal.com/news/delve-series-wyche-family/

What we need is a decent NFL team owner who will contribute to the city he owns a team in.  Our owner only wants more FROM the city.  What can we do to make Shad richer?

Very true. City leaders have been very successful with getting the business community on board with downtown revitalization and that's the other side of the coin of public-private partnerships. Having multinational corporation offices and large manufacturing facilities in the region is also a big source of philanthropy.

That was one of the keys to OKC's success as well  The business community stepped up big time.  Same goes for Omaha, Kansas City, Detroit, and others.