The Ford on Bay

[Ken_FSU]

JBJ just posted details.

Spandrel looks a little better after seeing some more renders. They want to include a grocer, but no marina, and public subsidies in line with other Jacksonville projects downtown. $130 million project.

Related is $80 million five story residential with marina. Very little retail space, but no incentives requested.

[Tacachale]

JBJ just posted details.

Spandrel looks a little better after seeing some more renders. They want to include a grocer, but no marina, and public subsidies in line with other Jacksonville projects downtown. $130 million project.

Related is $80 million five story residential with marina. Very little retail space, but no incentives requested.

Almost like it was a dumb idea to demolish those buildings with no plan or something.

[Ken_FSU]

^Listen, interested developers had every opportunity during the $30 million rush to demolition to break into the DIA/City Hall offices Watergate-style and present, at gunpoint if necessary, an unsolicited proposal for reuse, even if absolutely no parameters for doing such a thing were ever in place.

Love her to death, but would love to see her sources for this quote from November.

Adaptive Redevelopment

The question of adaptive reuse came up in regards to the Landing and the courthouse/annex sites, which were both targeted for demolition. 

Boyer said she wasn't seeing anyone come forward with any solid proposals to do adaptive reuse projects for either site, which in turn led to the city's decision to demolish the structures at both sites.

"If you have a vacant piece of land, you are much more likely to get interest and creative input on what can go there, than if you're constraining someone to use an existing building," Boyer said.

[thelakelander]

JBJ just posted details.

Spandrel looks a little better after seeing some more renders. They want to include a grocer, but no marina, and public subsidies in line with other Jacksonville projects downtown. $130 million project.

Related is $80 million five story residential with marina. Very little retail space, but no incentives requested.

Spandrel's looks better but will likely require Jag's Lot J type incentives. Related's is likely more realistic of Jax's market. Btw, have we not seen the latest headlines regarding Earth Fare and Lucky's?  Just because someone draws a grocery store on their plans (there are at least four DT proposals claiming this now) doesn't mean there's an actual market or ability to land one. Also, if 74,000 square feet of retail didn't work at the Landing site, it isn't going to work at this site either. Then there's the Lot J thing. Can they co-exist? Probably not. Personally, I hope the Hyatt exercises their option for the City Hall Annex block and find a way to get an exhibition hall that's larger than the Prime Osborn's on it. Then the winner of these two bids can focus their project on the courthouse lot.

[FlaBoy]

JBJ just posted details.

Spandrel looks a little better after seeing some more renders. They want to include a grocer, but no marina, and public subsidies in line with other Jacksonville projects downtown. $130 million project.

Related is $80 million five story residential with marina. Very little retail space, but no incentives requested.

Spandrel's looks better but will likely require Jag's Lot J type incentives. Related's is likely more realistic of Jax's market. Btw, have we not seen the latest headlines regarding Earth Fare and Lucky's?  Just because someone draws a grocery store on their plans (there are at least four DT proposals claiming this now) doesn't mean there's an actual market or ability to land one. Also, if 74,000 square feet of retail didn't work at the Landing site, it isn't going to work at this site either. Then there's the Lot J thing. Can they co-exist? Probably not. Personally, I hope the Hyatt exercises their option for the City Hall Annex block and find a way to get an exhibition hall that's larger than the Prime Osborn's on it. Then the winner of these two bids can focus their project on the courthouse lot.

Did Related provide details of density in their plan? It seems the more realistic of the two and would be a solid addition with its retail fronting Bay st.

[Ken_FSU]

^For better or worse, I think it's Spandrel's to lose.

Lori Boyer is hinting that Related might be out of compliance with the RFP requirements for retail, which is a major component of scoring. Design is also a major consideration, of which Related presented none.

Spandrel also showed more willingness to only develop one parcel of Hyatt exercise right of first refusal. We might see a situation where Hyatt claims the old Annex site and Spandrel develops the property fronting the river.

[MusicMan]

Marina?  Is there a demand for that? Or is it for a place to store the boat you never use?  The river from St Vincent's to the stadium is barely used at all.

[Ken_FSU]

Marina?  Is there a demand for that? Or is it for a place to store the boat you never use?  The river from St Vincent's to the stadium is barely used at all.

Spandrel didn't include a marina component for this very reason.

They didn't think there was currently a market for any more marina in Jacksonville.

[acme54321]

Marina?  Is there a demand for that? Or is it for a place to store the boat you never use?  The river from St Vincent's to the stadium is barely used at all.

Lol, seriously?  You should go out there on a weekend.  Not saying there needs to be another marina down there though.

[Ken_FSU]

The river from St Vincent's to the stadium is barely used at all.

Dumb question from a non-boater:

Why is this?

Seems like everywhere you look in Florida, the rivers and waterways are jammed with recreational boats. Fishing boats. Sail boats. Pontoons. Fort Myers, where I grew up, has a river running through it's downtown, and it's not uncommon to see literally 300 boats dotting the river at any given time.

What makes Jax different? The conditions? Economics? Is everyone just off boating somewhere else?

[acme54321]

Dumb question from a non-boater:

Why is this?

It's not. 

There is a lot of boat traffic downtown on the weekends.  People aren't stopping, but there is traffic.  Plus we have much more water per capita than most other parts of Florida so people aren't as concentrated.  You can run down the St John's, Black Creek, Doctors Lake, ICW, numerous tidal creeks, Nassau River, inlets Etc.

Fort Myers has miles and miles and miles of dredge and fill canals and a ton of waterfront homes (boats) in a very concentrated area.  That coupled with a bunch of well off retirees that can run boats all day isn't a normal situation. 

[Ken_FSU]

^Good answer, thanks!

Makes sense that the sprawl would apply to boaters as well.

[thelakelander]

^For better or worse, I think it's Spandrel's to lose.

Lori Boyer is hinting that Related might be out of compliance with the RFP requirements for retail, which is a major component of scoring. Design is also a major consideration, of which Related presented none.

Spandrel also showed more willingness to only develop one parcel of Hyatt exercise right of first refusal. We might see a situation where Hyatt claims the old Annex site and Spandrel develops the property fronting the river.

I don't mind Spandrel. I would prefer the proposal be realistic. Seems that new construction residential shouldn't need that much incentives these days......and 74k of retail is a pipe dream.

[Lostwave]

The river from St Vincent's to the stadium is barely used at all.

Dumb question from a non-boater:

Why is this?

Seems like everywhere you look in Florida, the rivers and waterways are jammed with recreational boats. Fishing boats. Sail boats. Pontoons. Fort Myers, where I grew up, has a river running through it's downtown, and it's not uncommon to see literally 300 boats dotting the river at any given time.

What makes Jax different? The conditions? Economics? Is everyone just off boating somewhere else?

As a boater, the reason is there is nowhere to dock.  We used to go downtown on our boat all the time and dock at the landing to have lunch.  The docks got messed up so we don't go downtown anymore on the boat.  There needs to be a marina for boats to come.  Not putting public docks here would be a real shame.  We would get day boaters as well as transients (not bums, rich people on yachts) passing through on their way up north.  Of course you need to have the retail/nightlife/food in order to support those transients.  When snowbirds bring their boats from the North East to their south Florida homes, they skip jax because there is no good place to dock.  A few people stop at Beach Marine for the night, but they definitely don't stay for a few days like they do in Charleston because there is absolutely nothing to do in Jax for a boater looking to make a trip of it.

[downtownbrown]

The river from St Vincent's to the stadium is barely used at all.

Dumb question from a non-boater:

Why is this?

Seems like everywhere you look in Florida, the rivers and waterways are jammed with recreational boats. Fishing boats. Sail boats. Pontoons. Fort Myers, where I grew up, has a river running through it's downtown, and it's not uncommon to see literally 300 boats dotting the river at any given time.

What makes Jax different? The conditions? Economics? Is everyone just off boating somewhere else?

As a boater, the reason is there is nowhere to dock.  We used to go downtown on our boat all the time and dock at the landing to have lunch.  The docks got messed up so we don't go downtown anymore on the boat.  There needs to be a marina for boats to come.  Not putting public docks here would be a real shame.  We would get day boaters as well as transients (not bums, rich people on yachts) passing through on their way up north.  Of course you need to have the retail/nightlife/food in order to support those transients.  When snowbirds bring their boats from the North East to their south Florida homes, they skip jax because there is no good place to dock.  A few people stop at Beach Marine for the night, but they definitely don't stay for a few days like they do in Charleston because there is absolutely nothing to do in Jax for a boater looking to make a trip of it.

^100%.  I would come from Palm Valley to downtown on a day trip frequently if there were a place to dock.  The Berkman marina was literally empty in 2012.  Look at it now.  And the Landing site was in total disrepair 3 hurricanes ago. Plus, boat vandals prevented overnight docking (not to mention no power stations).  I'm sure a new marina would be well utilized, especially if it could accomodate medium term visitors, like St. Augustine Municipal.  Some people might think the current is too strong for a lot of recreational boating.  Not true.  All local boating destinations have current issues.