Jax Post-Jags

[minder]

It's more about the stadium than the Jaguars itself. Before you get into anything else, the 9 Jags games, the FLA-GA game and the Gator Bowl bring circa 600k people a year to the downtown area. I fail to see how that volume of people is replaced. Jacksonville's assets otherwise to leisurely visitors also are the beaches and golf so outwith major events at the stadium visitors are not coming to Jacksonville and going Downtown.

The Landing is dead and the immediate area around it is dead and has hardly benefitted from losing the competition. Time people refocused efforts elsewhere in the city instead of trying to pigeon hole desperately onto the core when really there isn't the appetite for it.

Brooklyn and the Sports Complex are where it is at. Time will tell if these succeed or fail, but the core has consistently failed. And I'm willing to hedge my bets with the Sports Complex considering it has billionaire backing and the success of all the other sports/events anchored districts that have popped up around the country in the last decade or so. In a car centric city like this few people are going to travel from the Southside for example when you have SJTC simply to go downtown for dinner or drinks and nothing else. That's why having these projects close to stadiums and event venues which will bring people from suburban areas who ordinarily would not visit works.

Or we could put a stop to it all, get rid of them all and become Wichita or Des Moines.

[Adam White]

It's more about the stadium than the Jaguars itself. Before you get into anything else, the 9 Jags games, the FLA-GA game and the Gator Bowl bring circa 600k people a year to the downtown area. I fail to see how that volume of people is replaced. Jacksonville's assets otherwise to leisurely visitors also are the beaches and golf so outwith major events at the stadium visitors are not coming to Jacksonville and going Downtown.

The Landing is dead and the immediate area around it is dead and has hardly benefitted from losing the competition. Time people refocused efforts elsewhere in the city instead of trying to pigeon hole desperately onto the core when really there isn't the appetite for it.

Brooklyn and the Sports Complex are where it is at. Time will tell if these succeed or fail, but the core has consistently failed. And I'm willing to hedge my bets with the Sports Complex considering it has billionaire backing and the success of all the other sports/events anchored districts that have popped up around the country in the last decade or so. In a car centric city like this few people are going to travel from the Southside for example when you have SJTC simply to go downtown for dinner or drinks and nothing else. That's why having these projects close to stadiums and event venues which will bring people from suburban areas who ordinarily would not visit works.

Or we could put a stop to it all, get rid of them all and become Wichita or Des Moines.

How many of the people who attend Jaguars games come from outside the Jacksonville MSA or whatever? Just curious. Obviously it makes sense that the Gator Bowl would attract out-of-towners, as would the FL-GA game. I assume that the NFL games do attract some out-of-town visitors to support the visiting team.

The key (to me, at least) is to attract local people downtown on a regular basis - not just have them drive in for a game and then drive out. I don't see Jacksonville managing that sort of thing until they get serious development dowtown (restaurants, shopping, etc). And I don't see anything sustainable being developed downtown without a local population to support it.

[Kerry]

No. But you may have over estimated Oklahoma City's potential without the Thunder.

MAPS started in 1994.  The Thunder didn't move to OKC until 2008.

[Tacachale]

Maybe I've over-estimated Jacksonville's potential.

It's more that you started with a hypothetical premise - that Jax would be better off without the Jags and more able to play up its other assets - that few others agreed with.

[Tacachale]

It's more about the stadium than the Jaguars itself. Before you get into anything else, the 9 Jags games, the FLA-GA game and the Gator Bowl bring circa 600k people a year to the downtown area. I fail to see how that volume of people is replaced. Jacksonville's assets otherwise to leisurely visitors also are the beaches and golf so outwith major events at the stadium visitors are not coming to Jacksonville and going Downtown.

The Landing is dead and the immediate area around it is dead and has hardly benefitted from losing the competition. Time people refocused efforts elsewhere in the city instead of trying to pigeon hole desperately onto the core when really there isn't the appetite for it.

Brooklyn and the Sports Complex are where it is at. Time will tell if these succeed or fail, but the core has consistently failed. And I'm willing to hedge my bets with the Sports Complex considering it has billionaire backing and the success of all the other sports/events anchored districts that have popped up around the country in the last decade or so. In a car centric city like this few people are going to travel from the Southside for example when you have SJTC simply to go downtown for dinner or drinks and nothing else. That's why having these projects close to stadiums and event venues which will bring people from suburban areas who ordinarily would not visit works.

Or we could put a stop to it all, get rid of them all and become Wichita or Des Moines.

The condition of the core has more to do with weak policy and a habit of using Downtown incentives to micromanage what happens there than there being an "appetite" for it. The success or failure of the core also doesn't depend on pulling in suburbanites away from the mall. There are plenty of people in the Urban Core and elsewhere who would certainly frequent Downtown if we could get out of our own way and let it become more vibrant. The fact that downtown apartments are consistently full and that Downtown does have successful businesses even in its current state is proof of that.

[Snaketoz]

How is it possible to "have an attribute" that doesn't exist?

Try reading it again.

How can you have a "thing" that doesn't exist?  As far as downtown goes, cleaning out city hall, a halt to demolishing perfectly good structures and turning them into vacant lots, and First Baptist leaving will be a good start to it's revival.

[Kerry]

How is it possible to "have an attribute" that doesn't exist?

Try reading it again.

How can you have a "thing" that doesn't exist?  As far as downtown goes, cleaning out city hall, a halt to demolishing perfectly good structures and turning them into vacant lots, and First Baptist leaving will be a good start to it's revival.

Really?  Try reading it again, but slower this time.

You know - never mind.  Just let me give you an example.  Florida Music Hall of Fame.  Doesn't exist.  Should exist in downtown Jax.  That is how something that doesn't exist - should.

[thelakelander]

^Why should it exist in DT Jax and not Miami, Orlando or some other Florida city? I'm not making a case either way but I'm interested in reading your opinion.

[Snaketoz]

If we had a Florida Music Hall of Fame, that would be an attribute or thing.  If I were a mayor in Jacksonville I would start with improving the morale and general feeling that our citizens feel about our city.  I think coming up with a plan to pep up people already here is the way to go.  Why do we woo visitors to town when our own people think we're inferior?  Why do so many people drive to Orlando to fly?
Why can't we get competitive airfares?  What can we do to improve air service?  Why do most of the better concerts go to smaller, nearby towns?  Attract more Canadians-we have a lot to offer if we had the infrastructure. They bring in a lot of money with very little demand for services like more schools. Speaking of schools.... Do more to promote our medical facilities to those in Latin America.  Quit spending money on crap like shot spotter and get more police on the streets.  Our crime reputation is horrible.  Stop tearing down our city. Get rid of the rednecks on city council, the entire board of JEA that is over paid with redundant responsibilities that assure that nobody is responsible for anything.  Elect a progressive mayor that will do even a few of the above.

[Ken_FSU]

If I were a mayor in Jacksonville I would start with improving the morale and general feeling that our citizens feel about our city.  I think coming up with a plan to pep up people already here is the way to go.  Why do we woo visitors to town when our own people think we're inferior?

Do you guys think the inferiority complex is still a significant thing?

We're obviously still underachieving in terms of downtown development, crime prevention, mass transportation, parks, and education, but I just don't feel the insecurity on the streets like I did even 10 years ago.

It was bad in the early 2000s when I moved here, and in many ways, deservedly so.

But Jacksonville has had a hell of a post-recession boom. Our population has showed some of the highest growth in the nation, at a time when many cities are losing population. Retailers like IKEA, Whole Foods, Nordstrom, Trader Joe's, Apple, Tesla, Tiffany, Top Golf, etc. have flocked to Jacksonville at a breakneck pace, "legitimizing" Jacksonville as an economic powerhouse, for lack of a better term.

We've gone from a city of vanilla, anywhere-USA American-style chain restaurants to a city just teeming with exciting, diverse, packed local restaurants. Cool local breweries have popped up all over the city. Nightlife is night and day, even if we'll never be South Beach. UNF has made incredible gains. Daily's Place opened up and the Taylor Swifts, Arianna Grande's, and Justin Bieber's of the world are regularly stopping in Jax now, rather than going straight to Orlando. Unemployment is at record lows. Young graduates are choosing Jacksonville rather than fleeing Jacksonville. Jumbo Shrimp are setting attendance records, hockey is back, we're talking about a permanent stadium for the Armada.

And even though the Jags - the namesake of this thread - have self-destructed on the field, I just don't think you can overstate how important they are to civic pride and how much that last run of theirs contributed to getting Jacksonville further past the inferiority complex. Duval Till We Die, Duuuuvalll etc were all organic movements originating around our NFL franchise but spilling out into all other aspects of civic life in Jacksonville. 

Do we have a long way to go to live up to our potential? Sure. Are locals hanging their head in inferiority and embarrassed to tell people where they live? I kinda think we've shed that in the 2010s.

Imagine how great the 2020s will be if we actually get our shit together on some of this other stuff and actually get City Hall rowing with the current, instead of against it.

[Snaketoz]

It's great to read your upbeat take on J-ville, Ken.  I've always been pro Jax.  I think you're right in most of your points, but whenever I meet newcomers to our area I still get, I love the weather and the friendliness, but I wish...  The biggest obstacle to improving is the old way of thinking about things.  When we were smellier, the old timers said, "that's the smell of money".  Pollute all you want, as long as we get paychecks.  We have so many things that we could use to make our area great.  Let's have a large cruise ship terminal, we pay huge amounts of money to get companies to locate here.  Why not subsidize an airline to get non-stops to the west coast and Toronto?  Canadians are an under used people who mostly speak English, have good incomes, and would love to cut their travel time to reach a cruise terminal or warm weather, golf, etc. Start medical tourism.  Have things for people who come here for medical treatment  to do.  We are so under achieving.  Let's allow more outside opinions to be considered, not just the good ole boys'.

[Kerry]

^Why should it exist in DT Jax and not Miami, Orlando or some other Florida city? I'm not making a case either way but I'm interested in reading your opinion.

There is no reason it should have to be in Jax or downtown.  We can't claim we are the center of the Florida music history, but neither can any other city in Florida. So why should it be in downtown Jax?  Really for no more reason than I thought it up and I live here.  If I still lived in Tampa I would argue for it to be there.

[I-10east]

Excellent post Ken. That's exactly the way that I feel.

[Keith-N-Jax]

This thread is ridiculous. Downtown Jacksonville suffers from poor vision or lack of vision. No plans in place and when plans are in place the city doesn't follow through. The city continues to demolish and allow structures to be built that dont follow their own design review. How can 45 thousands plus being downtown 7 to 8 times a year be bad for downtown? Money made from parking, gear , tailgating and the Jaguar organization donates a lot of money to local charities. Who fills that void if they leave. Could the city survive without the Jaguars? Of course they could. The reason Jax is not further along than it should be is because the people in charge over the last few decades have hindered the process.

[jaxjags]

If I were a mayor in Jacksonville I would start with improving the morale and general feeling that our citizens feel about our city.  I think coming up with a plan to pep up people already here is the way to go.  Why do we woo visitors to town when our own people think we're inferior?

Do you guys think the inferiority complex is still a significant thing?

We're obviously still underachieving in terms of downtown development, crime prevention, mass transportation, parks, and education, but I just don't feel the insecurity on the streets like I did even 10 years ago.

It was bad in the early 2000s when I moved here, and in many ways, deservedly so.

But Jacksonville has had a hell of a post-recession boom. Our population has showed some of the highest growth in the nation, at a time when many cities are losing population. Retailers like IKEA, Whole Foods, Nordstrom, Trader Joe's, Apple, Tesla, Tiffany, Top Golf, etc. have flocked to Jacksonville at a breakneck pace, "legitimizing" Jacksonville as an economic powerhouse, for lack of a better term.

We've gone from a city of vanilla, anywhere-USA American-style chain restaurants to a city just teeming with exciting, diverse, packed local restaurants. Cool local breweries have popped up all over the city. Nightlife is night and day, even if we'll never be South Beach. UNF has made incredible gains. Daily's Place opened up and the Taylor Swifts, Arianna Grande's, and Justin Bieber's of the world are regularly stopping in Jax now, rather than going straight to Orlando. Unemployment is at record lows. Young graduates are choosing Jacksonville rather than fleeing Jacksonville. Jumbo Shrimp are setting attendance records, hockey is back, we're talking about a permanent stadium for the Armada.

And even though the Jags - the namesake of this thread - have self-destructed on the field, I just don't think you can overstate how important they are to civic pride and how much that last run of theirs contributed to getting Jacksonville further past the inferiority complex. Duval Till We Die, Duuuuvalll etc were all organic movements originating around our NFL franchise but spilling out into all other aspects of civic life in Jacksonville. 

Do we have a long way to go to live up to our potential? Sure. Are locals hanging their head in inferiority and embarrassed to tell people where they live? I kinda think we've shed that in the 2010s.

Imagine how great the 2020s will be if we actually get our shit together on some of this other stuff and actually get City Hall rowing with the current, instead of against it.

Totally agree. This was my point to Kerry about Oklahoma City and the Thunder. When I first lived here in 1989, civic pride was low. Perception of the city was not high. It was the papermill in the air city.

I doubt people in Oklahoma city sit around and talk about zoning and public financing in a bar. Bet they talk about the Thunder and NBA.

The Jaguars help put the city on the map. DT has lagged, but the city as a whole, as well as the metro area is not recognizable compared to 1989.

Perhaps things would continue to grow with a major league sports team, but I for one would not want to take a chance.

Lot's has changed for the better