Are You Okay Investing $233 Million For Lot J?

[thelakelander]

^There's more going on in Downtown right now than the Sports Complex.  That story will remain the same even if we do provide $233.3 million in incentives for the hope of seeing a 200 room hotel, 300 apartments, 120,000 square feet of new office space and a smaller, modern version of the Landing all materialize a mile down the street, ten years from now.

Why? Because for $18.5 million in incentives, the combination of the ten projects below, (half of which are already underway) within a five minute walk of Hemming Park, will bring 400 hotel rooms, 340 apartments, 221,000 square feet of new office space, 375,000 square feet of adaptive reuse office space, 55,000 square feet of ground floor retail, three rooftop restaurant/bars, five ground floor restaurants, an underground speakeasy and an urban bodega to the actual downtown core.



Opinions about barbells and hopes of something at the stadium being the game changer to transform a district a mile down the street are fine. Yet, when we start looking at the numbers and development timelines, you really begin to see how silly and wasteful all of this "gamechanger" nonsense is.

[FlaBoy]

Again on here the obsession with anything within a stone's throw of the Bank of America Tower. I've no idea why people keep pigeon holing the growth of the city in this small area as if it's the be all.

Face it folks, the landing is dead, and with or without it, there's empty storefronts and failed businesses all over the centre of downtown. The focus is on Brooklyn and the Sports Complex and the best way forward now is for Downtown to organically grow as a result in the middle.

Is $233 million in incentives for the sports complex "organic" in any way? There is nothing about the hundreds of millions of dollars proposed in public money between this plan, Daily's Place, the Hart Expressway, etc. Brooklyn has certainly been organic.

[Jim]

Again on here the obsession with anything within a stone's throw of the Bank of America Tower. I've no idea why people keep pigeon holing the growth of the city in this small area as if it's the be all.

Face it folks, the landing is dead, and with or without it, there's empty storefronts and failed businesses all over the centre of downtown. The focus is on Brooklyn and the Sports Complex and the best way forward now is for Downtown to organically grow as a result in the middle.

That's like putting all your focus on the branches of a plant and ignoring the roots.....if you want to get organic about it.

[Adam White]

Again on here the obsession with anything within a stone's throw of the Bank of America Tower. I've no idea why people keep pigeon holing the growth of the city in this small area as if it's the be all.

Face it folks, the landing is dead, and with or without it, there's empty storefronts and failed businesses all over the centre of downtown. The focus is on Brooklyn and the Sports Complex and the best way forward now is for Downtown to organically grow as a result in the middle.

Is $233 million in incentives for the sports complex "organic" in any way? There is nothing about the hundreds of millions of dollars proposed in public money between this plan, Daily's Place, the Hart Expressway, etc. Brooklyn has certainly been organic.

Well, dollar bills are made out of paper or something similar which is organic (more or less). I guess.

[heights unknown]

^There's more going on in Downtown right now than the Sports Complex.  That story will remain the same even if we do provide $233.3 million in incentives for the hope of seeing a 200 room hotel, 300 apartments, 120,000 square feet of new office space and a smaller, modern version of the Landing all materialize a mile down the street, ten years from now.

Why? Because for $18.5 million in incentives, the combination of the ten projects below, (half of which are already underway) within a five minute walk of Hemming Park, will bring 400 hotel rooms, 340 apartments, 221,000 square feet of new office space, 375,000 square feet of adaptive reuse office space, 55,000 square feet of ground floor retail, three rooftop restaurant/bars, five ground floor restaurants, an underground speakeasy and an urban bodega to the actual downtown core.



Opinions about barbells and hopes of something at the stadium being the game changer to transform a district a mile down the street are fine. Yet, when we start looking at the numbers and development timelines, you really begin to see how silly and wasteful all of this "gamechanger" nonsense is.

I get it Lakelander, and thank you very much for iterating this "much more" so that even I now clearly see with both eyes wide open. Just wish we had new projects online to plug up those empty lots that would add more density. When I have posts and news clips pop up on my comp about Tampa and the numerous projects (most new) that are now popping up (under construction) and proposed (with a very near future timeline) it makes me sick relative to what's going on in Jax; and, Jax will always be my city and my hometown though I now live in Sarasota. Sarasota, with an illusory population of 60,000 (it's much more than that...most areas are unannexed), is popping hard with new construction and mid-sized skysrapers (150 to 250 feet). I will be moving back to Jax very soon to close out the rest of my days. I love Jax, and always will; but I just wish those idiots in government and leadership would quit playing games and get it together!

[thelakelander]

Just wish we had new projects online to plug up those empty lots that would add more density.

If there were a coordinated plan built on successful, tried and true redevelopment strategies, the empty and underutilized buildings and spaces would be considered the catalytic sites in need of activation.

I'm not done with that map. I still need to add additional colors for underutilized buildings, surface parking lots and city-owned properties (most of these are also underutilized at ground level). They both present opportunities for activating the street and building an environment that stimulates density.

[bl8jaxnative]

I'm not a fan of neither.  The city throwing $7 million at the Ambassador Hotel is a butt ton of money given that all it gets are a couple handfuls of housing units and La Quinta.  And at that, a La Quinta sans a Dennys.

The Lot J stuff stinks to high heaven.  But I wouldn't give a blessing to just any ol' project downtown, either.    The dollar amounts aren't as high but a lot of them are pretty small.

[minder]

I'm not a fan of neither.  The city throwing $7 million at the Ambassador Hotel is a butt ton of money given that all it gets are a couple handfuls of housing units and La Quinta.  And at that, a La Quinta sans a Dennys.

The Lot J stuff stinks to high heaven.  But I wouldn't give a blessing to just any ol' project downtown, either.    The dollar amounts aren't as high but a lot of them are pretty small.

The public money given to the Jags for Lot J is bordering on bribery to keep the team, but as you said, those projects are nothing on the radar of Lot J. Lot J might be a rip-off, but its a huge project and a different direction for the city, its a direction which cities all round the country are taking with sports/event anchored districts, and its not failing thus far. The projects further DT are chicken feed by comparison. Building renovations, new businesses replacing failed ones, small time projects. This is brand new major construction.

[thelakelander]

In no world of common sense does spending $233 million in public funds to subsidize a small hotel, what will amount to a stick frame apartment complex, an office building (maybe) and a smaller Landing equate to being a fruitful investment. Such an incentive package should be ripped apart and analyzed by council 10 times more than the stance they've taken with the school board. That's a ton of money that could be used investing in neighborhoods all over the city to a greater benefit for taxpayers. My comment isn't to say attempts to development around the stadium should not be taken. However, investing $233 million should result in something transformational. Right now, what's proposed for the ask is well short of that.

[thelakelander]

I'm not a fan of neither.  The city throwing $7 million at the Ambassador Hotel is a butt ton of money given that all it gets are a couple handfuls of housing units and La Quinta.  And at that, a La Quinta sans a Dennys.

The Lot J stuff stinks to high heaven.  But I wouldn't give a blessing to just any ol' project downtown, either.    The dollar amounts aren't as high but a lot of them are pretty small.

Other than being real, the largest difference between the Ambassador and Lot J's incentives packages is that almost $100 million in Lot J subsidies is hard cash. Ambassador may also be a La Quinta and Vestcor may be building the 200 apartment component but we do know who the players are. Outside of Live!, the other components of Lot J are speculative and totally dependent on market conditions (and the public's hard cash). Yet unlike the Ambassador, the lion's share of public money invested into Lot J will happen on the front end instead of after the project's completion. In short, this means millions could be spent upfront, we go into a recession and end up with a half vacant Live! by itself in the middle of a surface parking lot. The parameters of such a deal need to be seriously vetted like Jax has never vetted a project before.

[tufsu1]

I'm not a fan of neither.  The city throwing $7 million at the Ambassador Hotel is a butt ton of money given that all it gets are a couple handfuls of housing units and La Quinta.  And at that, a La Quinta sans a Dennys.

realize I have a bias to La Quinta (no cost to bring my dog with me), but you really should check out some of their newest hotels - they are hardly Denny's level.

[Ken_FSU]

I wouldn't turn my nose up at a Denny's in the CBD.

[Ken_FSU]

Other than being real, the largest difference between the Ambassador and Lot J's incentives packages is that almost $100 million in Lot J subsidies is hard cash.

Wishful thinking, friend.

It's actually $208.3 million in hard cash