Are You Okay Investing $233 Million For Lot J?

[KenFSU]

Khan is a billionaire 5 times over.  He could sell his boat and pay for all this himself.

This is the weird part to me.

When you look at the other projects that the city has partnered with the Jags on - the video boards/cabanas, the amphitheater and practice facility, etc - it's always been a 50/50 split between the public and the Jags.

Shad Khan puts up half the capital, the city puts up the other half.

Risk is shared somewhat equally.

For this project though, it feels like more of a 50/50 split with Cordish, with the proposed terms not being that much different than what Cordish proposes in places like Kansas City where there's no direct involvement from a professional sports franchise.

I"m curious to know what the Jaguars specific skin in the game is.

Are they putting up a ton of capital, or are they just facilitating a deal between the city and Cordish?

I always kind of assumed that the final deal would be a 33/33/33 capital/risk split between the city, the Jags, and Cordish.

Definitely doesn't seem to be the case.

[DrQue]

Nashville got AllianceBernstein to move 1,000 jobs from Manhattan in exchange for $17m plus a tax break.

How on earth can we justify spending 10x that for some commercial properties and a new landing? Jax metro apartment construction starts over the last 12-months totaled 7,000 units (a record). New office buildings are being completed on Gate Pkwy. Hotels are starting to pop up in downtown proper.

The city providing a 50% subsidy for what is already occurring on an organic basis is mind numbing. Shad should at least have the decency to move his companies into the shiny new office building taxpayers are going to gift him.

Oh and one last thing. Really smart to plan a $450m development and not tie one of Jacksonville's most unique assets: the St Johns River.

[KenFSU]

Oh and one last thing. Really smart to plan a $450m development and not tie one of Jacksonville's most unique assets: the St Johns River.

This also baffles me.

If construction isn't going to start until the Hart Bridge ramps are removed, and Lot J also requires remediation, why not build on the other side of the street and take advantage of the riverfront.

Wouldn't the hotel, apartments, and office space be much more desirable with unobstructured riverfront views, and wouldn't all the proposed public space be much more attractive along the river?

Plus, you save all those parking spots in Lot J instead of having to rebuild them elsewhere.

[acme54321]

The best thing to do in this case is to let the city council know how you feel about it until it hopefully goes away.  Curry has nothing to lose in this shinanegans, the council members that will be up for reelection do.

[thelakelander]

Oh and one last thing. Really smart to plan a $450m development and not tie one of Jacksonville's most unique assets: the St Johns River.

This also baffles me.

If construction isn't going to start until the Hart Bridge ramps are removed, and Lot J also requires remediation, why not build on the other side of the street and take advantage of the riverfront.

Wouldn't the hotel, apartments, and office space be much more desirable with unobstructured riverfront views, and wouldn't all the proposed public space be much more attractive along the river?

Plus, you save all those parking spots in Lot J instead of having to rebuild them elsewhere.

I get why it economically makes since to take the bridge down first. None of that property (on either side of the viaduct) is viable for any of the proposed Lot J uses if it isn't easily accessible. For market rate development to work, everything needs to be directly accessible to a population much greater than what currently uses Gator Bowl Boulevard on a daily basis.

Unfortunately, much of our downtown development is being piecemealed into a modern Frankenstein at a crazy cost to the public. It will really suck when much of it fails and the expense is used to stop future needed downtown projects from being funded. Hopefully, Boyer is successful at bringing things together in a manner that enhances what's already proposed in a manner to where it cohesively leads to a vibrant end game, sooner rather than later and for a fraction of the costs.

[thelakelander]

The best thing to do in this case is to let the city council know how you feel about it until it hopefully goes away.  Curry has nothing to lose in this shinanegans, the council members that will be up for reelection do.

If people here would like to start posting the questions they believe council should ask and consider as a part of their evaluation, we can submit them as a unified document to council members.

[Kerry]

In 2015 Oklahoma City walked away from this $553 million development because the subsidy request from the developer was ridiculous (around $100 million if memory serves correctly.  The developer promised 2 residential towners, 2 office towers, a hotel, and a significant amount of retail space.  Let's hope COJ has the same fortitude.

[marcuscnelson]

The solution to all our problems, including paying for Lot J:
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/302275-curry-debt-free-jea

It's a miracle cure for what ails ya.

Well... there it is. That's the endgame, folks.

[I-10east]

Ever hear the saying, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money?"

I find it dismaying that the very conservative population of North Florida change their stripes when it suits them. The same sort of people who vilify 'welfare queens' turn a blind eye when uber-welfare queen Shad Khan comes calling with an outstretched palm.

Jax is a purple city that voted for Bill Nelson and Andrew Gillum in the last election. A "very conservative population" would be putting a microscope on St Johns County. Besides IMO many being a "Rah rah rah, DTWD, the Jags brass can't do anything wrong" without taking account of possible future detrimental repercussions, can surprisingly be non-political. That's not limited to Jacksonville fans either.

[I-10east]

What do yall think, is it gonna pass the city council, or nah?

It seems like the very top tier cities (NY, LA etc) gets the best deals with sports related infrastructure projects (as it's often fully privately financed) while all of the other cities often have to give an arm and a leg.

I'm a big Jags fan, but I get the pushback with tearing down the Landing, and building east of it at the stadium, with alot of public tax money involved. 

[Kerry]

What do yall think, is it gonna pass the city council, or nah?

It seems like the very top tier cities (NY, LA etc) gets the best deals with sports related infrastructure projects (as it's often fully privately financed) while all of the other cities often have to give an arm and a leg.

I'm a big Jags fan, but I get the pushback with tearing down the Landing, and building east of it at the stadium, with alot of public tax money involved.

Of course it is going to pass.  However, the concept is so misconceived it will never be successful and Jax will live with this mistake long past the death of everyone here.

[Adam White]

Ever hear the saying, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money?"

I find it dismaying that the very conservative population of North Florida change their stripes when it suits them. The same sort of people who vilify 'welfare queens' turn a blind eye when uber-welfare queen Shad Khan comes calling with an outstretched palm.

Jax is a purple city that voted for Bill Nelson and Andrew Gillum in the last election. A "very conservative population" would be putting a microscope on St Johns County. Besides IMO many being a "Rah rah rah, DTWD, the Jags brass can't do anything wrong" without taking account of possible future detrimental repercussions, can surprisingly be non-political. That's not limited to Jacksonville fans either.

I'd say the population of Jacksonville is conservative fiscally. In any event, it's a shame that people will willingly throw money at sports projects but are averse to taxes to fund necessary things.

You're right that's it's not just Jax - but I think the leadership in Jax has been particularly willing to roll over for the NFL. At the time, the deal the Jaguars got to come to Jax was (IIRC) the most 'friendly' deal to date.

You can contrast this (if you like) with the new Tottenham Hotspur stadium in London. It's a state-of-the-art stadium that is widely considered the best football stadium in the UK (and maybe the world, at the moment). In fact, it will host the NFL. Anyway, it cost about £1 billion and was paid for by the club. Actually, the cost was for the entire "Northumberland Development Project" which included other amenities - such as a supermarket, sports facilities, a hotel, public spaces, etc.

[Adam White]

What do yall think, is it gonna pass the city council, or nah?

It seems like the very top tier cities (NY, LA etc) gets the best deals with sports related infrastructure projects (as it's often fully privately financed) while all of the other cities often have to give an arm and a leg.

I'm a big Jags fan, but I get the pushback with tearing down the Landing, and building east of it at the stadium, with alot of public tax money involved.

I just wish there was a way to not make the public pay for this. I've nothing against Khan (well, except for the ponytail) - and have no reason to doubt his committment to Jacksonville - but I'd like him a lot more if he was paying for stuff like this himself!

The Landing thing is kind of sad to me. Regardless of the city's plans, I can't help but think it will be an empty lot for quite some time before anything happens to it. I don't understand the desire to tear stuff down in Jax.

[I-10east]

You can contrast this (if you like) with the new Tottenham Hotspur stadium in London. It's a state-of-the-art stadium that is widely considered the best football stadium in the UK (and maybe the world, at the moment). In fact, it will host the NFL. Anyway, it cost about £1 billion and was paid for by the club. Actually, the cost was for the entire "Northumberland Development Project" which included other amenities - such as a supermarket, sports facilities, a hotel, public spaces, etc.

Just what I was talking about, these top tier cities like London getting sports infrastructure deals that are fully privately financed, with no taxpayer money involved.

[I-10east]

The Landing thing is kind of sad to me. Regardless of the city's plans, I can't help but think it will be an empty lot for quite some time before anything happens to it. I don't understand the desire to tear stuff down in Jax.

I agree. IMO Jax was on a pretty good hiatus (for the most part) from mindlessly tearing down notable buildings, but now we are red hot once again!

Old Duval County Courthouse: Even though nothing is imminent to replace it, I actually don't have a problem with it being torn down. Pretty much unsalvageable, asbestos filled etc. It was gonna have to come down eventually, also being an eyesore.

City Hall Annex: I would've pumped the brakes, with nothing being set to replace it. Plus IMO it gave the Northbank skyline some depth, and not a bad looking building IMO. I'm not sure if it could've been repurposed to anything, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it could've. Shouldn't have been torn down, if nothing wasn't set to replace it immediately. 

Jacksonville Landing: An absolute travesty. I don't know what the F the city council was thinking about; seriously, were they paid off? An iconic building in the city will be lost, no doubt. I don't know if you can be saddened and angry at the same time, but that's the way I feel.