JEA Board to Consider Mass Layoffs/Privitization

[Steve]

No - I'm just telling the truth.  What Jax doesn't need is more people lying to themselves.  If TheJaxMag participants represent the local urbanist activist then it is no wonder little progress has been made and why the City basically doesn't care.  Even the civic leaders that are in a position to care -don't.  For example, counting downtown housing units that 1) aren't downtown and 2) don't even exists.  That kind of fraud should be cause for immediate dismissal in a City that was actually trying to urbanize.  It is just lying - period, and I for one am sick and tired of City officials lying.

Your interpretations of things are no more "the truth" that what the cheerleaders say. At least they don't hate the city.

If we're talking 20 years, then you'd have to consider where Riverside and Avondale were 20 years ago. I'm sure it's nothing compared to a comparable neighborhood in OKC, but I'd say the transformation is pretty impressive. But maybe my bar is too low their too.

[Kerry]

As the premier historic neighborhood in Jax, yes it underwhelms.  I spent most of the last 7 months in the western suburbs of Chicago and after seeing places like Glen Ellyn, Wheaton, Downers Grove, Lisle, Naperville, and dozens of others it is a shame the homeowners in Riverside/Avondale/San Marco/Springfield can't get their act together.  Maybe comparing Jax to railroad suburbs isn't fair to Jax, but OKC is almost identical to Jax in every measurable statistical category so if you want to stick with OKC as an example then so be it.

These are the premier historic neighborhoods around downtown OKC.
https://www.mestapark.org/
http://www.heritagehills.org/
https://ch-eh.org/
https://www.thepaseo.org/
http://midtownokc.com/
http://www.deepdeucedistrict.com/
http://www.plazadistrict.org/
http://www.visitwesternavenue.com/
http://www.automobilealley.org/
https://uptown23rd.com/
http://www.bricktownokc.com/
https://westvillageokc.com/
https://www.filmrowokc.com/

and a brand new neighborhood built on the old downtown airpark
https://www.wheelerdistrict.com/

Finally, I don't hate necessarily hate Jax - what I hate is a bunch of do-nothing Civic Leaders (not just elected leaders but the development community, activist, corporate heads, etc) dawdling while nothing gets done.

[Steve]

I'm not comparing the number of historic districts. Personally, visiting a lot of other cities I think Riverside/Avondale compares to many of them. Perfect? No. But, the folks in Riverside and Avondale can hardly be called "do-nothings". Maybe you don't like the things they "do", but they aren't doing nothing.

[Kerry]

I'm not comparing the number of historic districts. Personally, visiting a lot of other cities I think Riverside/Avondale compares to many of them. Perfect? No. But, the folks in Riverside and Avondale can hardly be called "do-nothings". Maybe you don't like the things they "do", but they aren't doing nothing.

I guess we will just have to disagree.

[Steve]

The APA listed Riverside/Avondale as one of their 10 great neighborhoods in 2011 or 2012. Call them up and tell them you disagree. I'm sure they'll take your complaint quite seriously.

[thelakelander]

I'm on the road more than I'm in Jax these days and I've always made it a point to spend time in the historic cores of the communities I'm either visiting, working in or passing through. Based off what I've seen across the Sunbelt, Riverside/Avondale is right up there with the best of residential historic districts in cities like Atlanta, Tampa, Richmond, Houston, Dallas, Nashville, etc. IMO, Orlando, Charlotte, Raleigh, etc. don't have comparables the scale of Riverside/Avondale. Sorry, not buying Thornton Park, Dilworth, etc.  Nice places, but much smaller with less architectural diversity IMO....and no river.

With that being said, if one is going to start comparing Sunbelt residential historic districts with those in older established Northern and Midwestern cities, the Northern/Midwestern comparables would be their inner ring suburbs/streetcar suburban communities. Very few districts in the South outside of Miami, New Orleans, DC, Savannah, Charleston, etc. are going to have the type of historic pedestrian scale density associated with the Northeast and Rust Belt communities.

[Kerry]

Okay, whatever I guess.

[thelakelander]

I'm all for learning. What residential historic district in Tampa, Orlando, Atlanta, Charlotte or Dallas would you say are light years ahead or superior to Riverside? Also, why? Everyone has different perspectives on similar issues so it would be good to better understand where you're coming from and what you value within a historic district?

[Kerry]

I'm all for learning. What residential historic district in Tampa, Orlando, Atlanta, Charlotte or Dallas would you say is light years ahead or superior to Riverside? Also, why? Everyone has different perspectives on similar issues so it would be good to better understand where you're coming from and what you value within a historic district?

What makes a good historic district?  Let me start off by saying I don't care for the term 'Historic "or "Preservation", my primary concern is good urbanism, be it brand new or old.  I also believe in the Urban to Rural Transect and the associated T-Zones.  Finally, I also think "incrementalism" is the best way to grow urbanism, which is in direct conflict with "historic" and "preservation" efforts. Cities should not be built to a finish state (urban sprawl), or frozen in time (historic preservation) which is just a form of finished state.

Now having said that, there are many characteristics that create great neighborhoods but it might be easier to identify what I think Riverside/Avondale lacks which in my opinion keeps it from being a great urban neighborhood.

1)  High percentage of renter-occupied single family homes.  I don't know what the actual percentage is but I can tell you from my own personal experience there are a significant number of rental properties in Riverside and Springfield.  In the two deed-restricted subdivisions I have lived in rental units have been limited to 10% of the housing stock.  In a great urban residential neighborhood the owners WANT to live there, not rent it out.  Renters have no vested interest.

2)  Use of previous single family homes as primary business.  In the 80's it was thought that the only to save places like Riverside was to allow businesses to take over single family homes, and for the most part it worked.  In fact, it worked too well.  However, those days are over and housing is in demand now.  These homes should be returned to the housing stock, which brings me to my third point.

3)  Densification of existing commercial corridors.  This is something RAP and other groups fight tooth and nail.  King Street, 5-Points, Avondale, and a few other pockets need to start going vertical to accommodate the growth and keep housing prices low (probably the main reason for opposition from home owners).  Businesses should be encouraged to move from single family homes to new mid-rise commercial buildings built in the existing commercial areas (clustering).  This may require the City to build parking garages.  First floor retail, 2nd floor professional services, 3 thur 7 residential/hotel.

4)  Upkeep of the housing stock.  This is where I think Riverside fails miserably, especially compared to the prime downtown adjacent neighborhoods in other cities.  While there are a few very nice homes with well-maintained landscaping, the vast majority is downright junky and unkempt.  This likely results from a high percentage of renters coupled with what I find to be common in Jax - a general lack of pride in ownership.  A lot of people just don't care and they lack the financial resources, ability, time, and desire to keep their properties maintained.  Basically, trees/bushes aren't pruned, sidewalks aren't edged, fencing isn't maintained, and lawns are patchy (if they exist at all).  In addition, it isn't uncommon to see cars parked on the grass between the sidewalk and street because a single family home has been converted to 2 or 3 apartments.

5)  Parks are poor maintained.  This is the City dropping the ball big time.  The parks throughout Riverside are barely parks at all.  They almost resemble vacant lots with a sign telling you it is supposed to be a park.  Memorial Park STILL ISN'T FIXED, and it has been 2 years.  When I travel the country and look at the amazing neighborhood parks it is a constant reminder about the monumental failure the COJ parks dept is.

6)  Limited public transportation.  In Jax public transportation is basically a bus.  In places like Atlanta, OKC, Dallas, and many many more, urban public transportation has switched to streetcars and greenways.  I was reading last week that Greenville, SC (one of my new favorite places) is in the beginning stages of bring back fixed rail as well.  Jax? Crickets.  And it isn't just streetcars; bike share systems and the dreaded electric scooters are in almost every village, town, and city in the country, but not Jax.  We wanted to take a bike ride in Greenville last weekend and all the bikes were checked out every time we tried.

7)  This is related to #4, but what passes for quality remodeling and renovation is woefully pathetic.  I know this will hit home for some you because you are the ones trying to pass off these poorly executed remodels.  You can't just throw up some new paint and a kitchen counter top and call that 'renovated', then try to command a premium price.  My wife and I looked at dozens and dozens of homes in Riverside, Murray Hill, Springfield, and San Marco and all of them were half-ass while demanding full-ass prices.  Most needed to be gutted down to the studs and renovated correctly.

Where does Riverside (and the other downtown adjacent neighborhoods) excel?  There is some pretty amazing religious architecture.  Honestly, outside of Paris it is some of the best I have seen, and there is a lot of it.

[dp8541]

I strongly agree with your points 4 and 5.  We owned a home in Avondale from 2015-2018 and the lack of upkeep with landscaping was very noticeable.  This did appear to be a bigger issue with the rental properties.  Regarding the parks, which is a city wide issue, they definitely left a lot to be desired in the riverside area (Memorial is actually the best maintained park in the area). 

[Adam White]

Where does Riverside (and the other downtown adjacent neighborhoods) excel?  There is some pretty amazing religious architecture.  Honestly, outside of Paris it is some of the best I have seen, and there is a lot of it.

Really? Nothing against Jax, but I find that hard to believe. Unless the only place you've been to outside of Paris is Oklahoma City.

[Captain Zissou]

Much to my own amazement, I mostly agree with you. 

Except number 7. Also the part about religious architecture.  Yeah they have good churches, but they aren't even the best in NEFL.

[Kerry]

I'm not saying Jax has the best religious architecture on the planet, but there are at least 40 churches in the downtown-adjacent neighborhoods that have beautiful architectural details.  That isn't too bad.  One thing that is missing from them are the adjacent cemeteries which many churches of this vintage have.  I actually find that a little odd.

[Tacachale]

I'm all for learning. What residential historic district in Tampa, Orlando, Atlanta, Charlotte or Dallas would you say is light years ahead or superior to Riverside? Also, why? Everyone has different perspectives on similar issues so it would be good to better understand where you're coming from and what you value within a historic district?

What makes a good historic district?  Let me start off by saying I don't care for the term 'Historic "or "Preservation", my primary concern is good urbanism, be it brand new or old.  I also believe in the Urban to Rural Transect and the associated T-Zones.  Finally, I also think "incrementalism" is the best way to grow urbanism, which is in direct conflict with "historic" and "preservation" efforts. Cities should not be built to a finish state (urban sprawl), or frozen in time (historic preservation) which is just a form of finished state.

Now having said that, there are many characteristics that create great neighborhoods but it might be easier to identify what I think Riverside/Avondale lacks which in my opinion keeps it from being a great urban neighborhood.

I'm going to respond to these point by point. A lot of what you say is reasonable, but some is just...

1)  High percentage of renter-occupied single family homes.  I don't know what the actual percentage is but I can tell you from my own personal experience there are a significant number of rental properties in Riverside and Springfield.  In the two deed-restricted subdivisions I have lived in rental units have been limited to 10% of the housing stock.  In a great urban residential neighborhood the owners WANT to live there, not rent it out.  Renters have no vested interest.

Ok, this is some elitist bullshit. I have no idea if it's accurate or not that Riverside has more renters than comparable communities - I tend to doubt it - but renters aren't some vampiric horde who need to be kept out of the "good" neighborhoods. In fact, that's the way a lot of people, especially younger people and bohemian types who start the early work of resurrecting neighborhoods, get into these places in the first place. New York City is mostly renters, and some people think it's pretty vibrant. At any rate I tend to doubt the breakdowns are much different in Riverside than in the other cities you claim do everything better.

2)  Use of previous single family homes as primary business.  In the 80's it was thought that the only to save places like Riverside was to allow businesses to take over single family homes, and for the most part it worked.  In fact, it worked too well.  However, those days are over and housing is in demand now.  These homes should be returned to the housing stock, which brings me to my third point.

This one I mostly agree with - we need more urban housing and in many cases it would be good to turn some former homes back to that use. But that's not the full story. In a lot of cases, homes were rezoned to expand a business district, or got CRO zoning to give owners an option. Those shouldn't all necessarily be rolled back. The Five Points commercial district, for instance, serves a much wider population than it did when it was more of a neighborhood center, so growth isn't a bad thing.

3)  Densification of existing commercial corridors.  This is something RAP and other groups fight tooth and nail.  King Street, 5-Points, Avondale, and a few other pockets need to start going vertical to accommodate the growth and keep housing prices low (probably the main reason for opposition from home owners).  Businesses should be encouraged to move from single family homes to new mid-rise commercial buildings built in the existing commercial areas (clustering).  This may require the City to build parking garages.  First floor retail, 2nd floor professional services, 3 thur 7 residential/hotel.

Not bad ideas. They would probably work better in some areas than others.

4)  Upkeep of the housing stock.  This is where I think Riverside fails miserably, especially compared to the prime downtown adjacent neighborhoods in other cities.  While there are a few very nice homes with well-maintained landscaping, the vast majority is downright junky and unkempt.  This likely results from a high percentage of renters coupled with what I find to be common in Jax - a general lack of pride in ownership.  A lot of people just don't care and they lack the financial resources, ability, time, and desire to keep their properties maintained.  Basically, trees/bushes aren't pruned, sidewalks aren't edged, fencing isn't maintained, and lawns are patchy (if they exist at all).  In addition, it isn't uncommon to see cars parked on the grass between the sidewalk and street because a single family home has been converted to 2 or 3 apartments.

Back on the elitist babble. As the proud owner, not renter, of a barely maintained yard, I say suck it to all lawn police. Don't want a "junky and unkempt" yard? Do what you want on your property. In fact, our long term plan is to rip up most of our useless grass for a garden, which a lot of the HOA types would throw a fit over.

5)  Parks are poor maintained.  This is the City dropping the ball big time.  The parks throughout Riverside are barely parks at all.  They almost resemble vacant lots with a sign telling you it is supposed to be a park.  Memorial Park STILL ISN'T FIXED, and it has been 2 years.  When I travel the country and look at the amazing neighborhood parks it is a constant reminder about the monumental failure the COJ parks dept is.

This one is 100% correct, sadly.

6)  Limited public transportation.  In Jax public transportation is basically a bus.  In places like Atlanta, OKC, Dallas, and many many more, urban public transportation has switched to streetcars and greenways.  I was reading last week that Greenville, SC (one of my new favorite places) is in the beginning stages of bring back fixed rail as well.  Jax? Crickets.  And it isn't just streetcars; bike share systems and the dreaded electric scooters are in almost every village, town, and city in the country, but not Jax.  We wanted to take a bike ride in Greenville last weekend and all the bikes were checked out every time we tried.

Also correct. In fact, bad transit and connectivity is the second worst thing about living in Jax, after the inferiority complex.

7)  This is related to #4, but what passes for quality remodeling and renovation is woefully pathetic.  I know this will hit home for some you because you are the ones trying to pass off these poorly executed remodels.  You can't just throw up some new paint and a kitchen counter top and call that 'renovated', then try to command a premium price.  My wife and I looked at dozens and dozens of homes in Riverside, Murray Hill, Springfield, and San Marco and all of them were half-ass while demanding full-ass prices.  Most needed to be gutted down to the studs and renovated correctly.

Seriously?! I'm sorry to be the first person to tell you this, but old houses are going to have old house problems. But they also have advantages over the modern crap that gets built or the unnecessary over-remodelings that some people expect that essentially replace an old house with a lame modern one (that happens in San Marco more than Riverside, where people have more sense). The price point is also a lot less than in many of our peer cities, even if you had to remodel it yourself.

Where does Riverside (and the other downtown adjacent neighborhoods) excel?  There is some pretty amazing religious architecture.  Honestly, outside of Paris it is some of the best I have seen, and there is a lot of it.

Not a bad point.

[Kerry]

Not wanting to maintain your yard is a common theme in Riverside/San Marco/Springfield.