10 Grass Fields To Get You Pumped For The Landing Demo

[Tacachale]

I think this conversation shows the problem with trying to diagnose problems that are rooted in perception rather than real world causes. Perception differs between people. Making an area seem more "safe" for some people may not make it seem safe or otherwise appealing for others.

[thelakelander]

Yes, worrying about appealing to opinionated perceptions and personal biases is a waste of time in the real world of urban development and revitalization. Actual issues that can be supported by factual data can be addressed and improved. Focus on those, the things that make your locale unique, the people who live there already and those who want to be there.

[thelakelander]

Btw, been to KC too. Spent about 20 minutes walking around the Power & Light District to see what it was all about. Then I got in my car and drove to Arthur Bryants BBQ for a real authentic KC meal as opposed to sitting down at P&L's Yard House or Chipotle. If you're ever in KC, check out City Market. Much better authentic experience. In St. Louis, skipped Ballpark Village altogether, spending more time on Washington Avenue, Central West End, Forest Park, Delmar and even East St. Louis! For those who think having a new smaller modern Landing next to the stadium is going to make much of a difference on DT vibrancy and its ability to pull people in.....think again. But to get back on topic. I don't think I've spent much time in any of these places checking out the vacant lots or waterfront lawns.

[Kerry]

Yes, there are real people who say let's go to NYC to visit Harlem. Let's go to St. Louis to visit the historic Busch brewery. Let's go to New Orleans and fill up on cajun, creole food and take in some jazz. There are people who grab a cheesesteak when visiting Philly, get a deep dish pizza in Chicago, lump crabcake in Baltimore. Others go to Miami because of the architecture and latin cosmopolitan atmosphere. Tampa has made a killing off of perserving and marketing its cigar making history and visitors do come specifically for it. I'm one of them and I've spent a good sum of money doing so over the years to experience local culture and sense of place that each locale offers. My advice to you would be instead of taking your visiting friends to town center or Applebees the next time in town, try a camel rider or opt for a platet of ribs from Jenkins. Take a ride down Heckscher and expose them to some authentic slices of Jax that can't be replicated in other places like OKC or Charlotte.

All those things you listed are synonymous with those places.  While Gullah Geechee relatives may in fact live in Jacksonville it is not our defining characteristic.  Hell, I've lived here for 16 years and I couldn't even tell you what our defining characteristic is other than maybe sprawl (like being the largest land area city is something to be proud of).  As for when visitors come from out of town, I do what 95% of the Jax people do - send them to St Augustine.

[Steve]

While Gullah Geechee relatives may in fact live in Jacksonville it is not our defining characteristic.  Hell, I've lived here for 16 years and I couldn't even tell you what our defining characteristic is

I think you just made his point.

[Kerry]

I'll agree that Jax is a blank slate when it comes to that subject, but the future of Jax is not going to be built on Black Culturalism - it just isn't.  Every Indian tribe has a cultural center but the vast majority of their tourism and income is derived from casinos.  Just look at Gatlinburg, TN and Cherokee, NC.  Both are at the gateways to Great Smoky Mountains National Park.  One is a major tourist destination with millions of visitors and the other is sad and depressing.  Who knows though, maybe Cherokee was aiming for sad and depressing.  For everyone on the East Coast Cherokee is just a place you go through on the way to Gatlinburg.

On a related note - I just finished The Next American City and there was a section that talked about City Branding.  Of course I instantly tried to figure what image Jax conjured up in peoples minds and I just drew a blank.

[thelakelander]

You know how you become synonymous with your local quirks and history?

What I'm talking about specifically is living up to your own local identity, promoting, preserving, building upon your culture and owning it.

I'm a Gullah Geechee descendant and I can give you a history lesson there. That identity is all around you. You and a good chunk of newcomers to this area just don't know it. Spend anytime in the Northside of town and you'll find garlic crab hole in the walls all over the place. You won't find that in OKC, Austin, Detroit or Boston. That's a Jax thing that is a direct link. Another traditional thing you'll find here is bridge fishing (Heckscher is a good place for this) and fishing in general. You want to fill up the riverfront downtown? Allow fishing in certain spots and watch that Gullah culture really show up consistently since most don't have access to boats. You also see it in the dominant one pot seafood dishes here like low country boils, shrimp & grits, etc. The average person not knowing this in the 21st century is a fault of Jax not being inclusive and welcoming to promote what it is. I'll admit I didn't even know some of this stuff until hosting a family reunion and old timers showing up with a specific request for Jacksonville garlic crabs. Being of aware now, I see the little places are everywhere....well on the dominant black side of town....sort of like Dunkin Donuts in Center City Philly.

Yet, Jax's heritage and history is more than just black. We also boast the country's fifth-largest Syrian population, and the tenth largest overall Arab American community. Like those gralic crab houses all over the urban core, Middle Eastern restaurants, delis, sandwich shops, etc. can be found all over the city. Riders served with a side of tabbouleh and cherry limeade are actually a local thing that predates the invention of Chicago-style deep dish pizza. The delis tend to be heavily supported by the working class and longtime Jaxsons, so they get the short end of the promotional stick as well.

Don't even let me get started with the local music stuff. You'd probably say the blues and Beale Street are synonymous with Memphis. However, in the late-1970s, Beale was what Broad and Ashley look like in LaVilla today. A place torn apart by urban renewal with a small collection of boarded up old buildings (that Jax still does not value) where significant historical greats really lived, worked, played and partied. All Memphis really did was focus their story and revitalization around their musical heritage. What you see and think today is a direct result of going down that "this is me" path 30 to 40 years ago. So again, we could make a killing simply highlighting and rebuilding our story of our contributions to the jazz, blues, ragtime, southern rock, miami bass, etc. music genres.

As for when visitors come from out of town, I do what 95% of the Jax people do - send them to St Augustine.

I doubt this is true considering roughly 50% of Jax is minority now. A good chunk of people in this city don't even make it to the beach, much less St. Augustine. As a kid, my family would visit Jax one or twice a year. 90% of that time was spent in the urban core, Northside and Westsides of town. I didn't see Riverside until spending a college weekend here and didn't see the beach until interviewing for the job that got me here in 2003. Knowing that there are different Jacksonville's, one of the first things I did when I moved here was to spend each weekend visiting a neighborhood I'd never been to before, via riding a bike or walking it and stopping in local businesses along the way. You'll really learn your community that way. At that point, advising people to go to St. Augustine only happens after they've exhausted all the other things that Jax has to offer.

[Tacachale]

I'll agree that Jax is a blank slate when it comes to that subject, but the future of Jax is not going to be built on Black Culturalism - it just isn't.  Every Indian tribe has a cultural center but the vast majority of their tourism and income is derived from casinos.  Just look at Gatlinburg, TN and Cherokee, NC.  Both are at the gateways to Great Smoky Mountains National Park.  One is a major tourist destination with millions of visitors and the other is sad and depressing.  Who knows though, maybe Cherokee was aiming for sad and depressing.  For everyone on the East Coast Cherokee is just a place you go through on the way to Gatlinburg.

On a related note - I just finished The Next American City and there was a section that talked about City Branding.  Of course I instantly tried to figure what image Jax conjured up in peoples minds and I just drew a blank.

I MUCH prefer visiting Cherokee over Gatlinburg. To each their own.

[Snaketoz]

From reading these posts it's apparent that both Kerry and thelakelander are proving the same point.  We see the problems, but have differing ideas as to their solution.  You are both correct.  Kerry, OKC is a mere pimple on Jacksonville's ass. Who in their right mind wants to be like OKC?  lakelander, everyone who has an idea that you don't agree with, you pull the race card out.  Some times it warranted, mostly it isn't.  You are both correct, yet you are both wrong.

[thelakelander]

I'll agree that Jax is a blank slate when it comes to that subject, but the future of Jax is not going to be built on Black Culturalism - it just isn't.  Every Indian tribe has a cultural center but the vast majority of their tourism and income is derived from casinos.  Just look at Gatlinburg, TN and Cherokee, NC.  Both are at the gateways to Great Smoky Mountains National Park.  One is a major tourist destination with millions of visitors and the other is sad and depressing.  Who knows though, maybe Cherokee was aiming for sad and depressing.  For everyone on the East Coast Cherokee is just a place you go through on the way to Gatlinburg.

Lol where did the cultural center thing come into play? I never said build a cultural center. I said own up to who you (Jax) are and promote the things that make you (Jax) special. Our black history and contributions are a part of that but they aren't the only thing. I feel like everything I'm saying, no matter how I present and showcase it to you is flying right out the window.

[thelakelander]

From reading these posts it's apparent that both Kerry and thelakelander are proving the same point.  We see the problems, but have differing ideas as to their solution.  You are both correct.  Kerry, OKC is a mere pimple on Jacksonville's ass. Who in their right mind wants to be like OKC?  lakelander, everyone who has an idea that you don't agree with, you pull the race card out.  Some times it warranted, mostly it isn't.  You are both correct, yet you are both wrong.

No we aren't. You might not like it, but I'm coming from a factual and documented perspective of the region's cultural development and growth. I have all the data and documentation to back my points up. Feel free to prove me wrong instead of inaccurately claiming the pull the race card thing out. We can do better than that. Own up to your local history.

[vicupstate]

Of course I instantly tried to figure what image Jax conjured up in peoples minds and I just drew a blank.

You mean 'It's easier here' didn't come to mind?

I am a big believer in a city cultivating a brand. If done right it can work wonders. Unfortunately no one in JAX even seems to understand the concept, much less how to do it. That is too bad, because they is a gracious plenty to work with.   

[Snaketoz]

From reading these posts it's apparent that both Kerry and thelakelander are proving the same point.  We see the problems, but have differing ideas as to their solution.  You are both correct.  Kerry, OKC is a mere pimple on Jacksonville's ass. Who in their right mind wants to be like OKC?  lakelander, everyone who has an idea that you don't agree with, you pull the race card out.  Some times it warranted, mostly it isn't.  You are both correct, yet you are both wrong.

No we aren't. You might not like it, but I'm coming from a factual and documented perspective of the region's cultural development and growth. I have all the data and documentation to back my points up. Feel free to prove me wrong instead of inaccurately claiming the pull the race card thing out. We can do better than that. Own up to your local history.

I'm owning up to our local history.  I'm a sixth generation No. Floridian.  I'm not proud of everything that has happened here, but I'm not blaming any particular race.  I'm proud that we've elected a black sheriff and a black mayor.  Everyone who doesn't feel safe on Dunn Ave. or the Landing isn't a racist.  You are absolutely wrong to try to classify or critique a person's perceptions.  Perceptions are created from experience and logic.  Am I a racist because I don't want to visit Yemen?  Is it wrong to perceive zip code 32209 as dangerous?  I know people from all races that feel unsafe going to the Landing.  It's not my job to second guess them.  Usually a perception is based on history, local knowledge, and being informed.  When you are walking from the Landing late at night to your car, I could care less about the race of a robber, aggressive panhandler, or sucker puncher.  I want to avoid that situation if possible.  If I (or you) were to go to certain areas and get accosted, the first thing both your and my friends and family would say is, "what the hell was he doing there?"  That's not racist, that is called street smarts.

[OldOrangeHause]

Well, as a black man with Geechee, Creek, and god knows whatever else ancestry. I see myself as too much of person to care about the different parts that me up as a whole. If I'm supposed to care, I need to be persuaded via scholarly paper. And those are few and far between.

People are so wound up in racial and social differences, that they fly right over the things we should be more concerned with as a community. We build all these fancy utopian haciendas right in the middle of flood zones. Yet, people only take notice of this when disaster strikes. Let's turn these grassy fields and derelict buildings into something that can be of use in event of a major hurricane. We want to grow the community and all that. But, where are all these people supposed to go if they can't get out? There's always congestion when people wait to hit the road at the last minute. So where can all of the hundreds of thousands of evacuees stuck in here town go if not back to their homes in flood zones? No, we don't care about that. We're only supposed to worry about racial problems, petty criminals, and crazy people in office.

[thelakelander]

I'm owning up to our local history.  I'm a sixth generation No. Floridian.  I'm not proud of everything that has happened here, but I'm not blaming any particular race.  I'm proud that we've elected a black sheriff and a black mayor.  Everyone who doesn't feel safe on Dunn Ave. or the Landing isn't a racist.

Stop, you're not going to paint me into a picture of specifically calling any individual racist. I'm talking about embracing local culture and not giving in to ignorant perceptions and biases of a minority percentage of the population and using them as valid reasons to push certain types of public policies and revitalization strategies. You don't need to blow up or change Dunn Avenue because some random individual is uncomfortable of being on a side of town where the demographic makeup isn't to their liking. This has nothing to do about electing a black sheriff, mayor or whatever. I'm flat out saying that was an ignorant observation made by the bus driver and that it does not equate Dunn Avenue to being an unsafe place.

You are absolutely wrong to try to classify or critique a person's perceptions.  Perceptions are created from experience and logic.  Am I a racist because I don't want to visit Yemen?  Is it wrong to perceive zip code 32209 as dangerous?

Again, you can stop with the racist stuff, because you're pretty far off base. Yes, I am flat out saying there is a difference between reality and perception when it comes to planning, development, etc. You don't change Dunn because someone not used to that area has a certain perception based on fear and ignorance of that environment. So if applied to you....you don't like Yemen...well don't go. Yemen should not have to reinvent itself because Snaketoz doesn't want to go there. Also, perception isn't always created from experience and logic.  For 39 years, I hated oysters. I had never tried one but I didn't like the way they looked, so I didn't like them. Then I finally tried one and found out they were pretty good. I had a perception. It wasn't based on experience or logic. It was based on ignorance.

I know people from all races that feel unsafe going to the Landing.  It's not my job to second guess them.  Usually a perception is based on history, local knowledge, and being informed.

See response above. Ignorance can also a big factor in perception. Don't discount it. The personal example I gave above was a real one.

When you are walking from the Landing late at night to your car, I could care less about the race of a robber, aggressive panhandler, or sucker puncher.  I want to avoid that situation if possible.  If I (or you) were to go to certain areas and get accosted, the first thing both your and my friends and family would say is, "what the hell was he doing there?"  That's not racist, that is called street smarts.

Lol street smarts? Good lord. I have an office across the street from the Landing. I've had an office within two blocks of the Landing since 2014. I've had an office in downtown continuously since 2009. At no point have I ever felt fearful of walking in downtown late at night to my truck.....which I usually park on Laura north of State (I get it, some would we their pants) because I don't like paying for parking. If you pull the crime rates, you see downtown's are actually pretty low. If you're there on a consistent basis, you'd personally know this from experience as well. To claim that it is a high crime area when the factual statistics don't support that would be considered a perception based on ignorance.  Is it empty? Yes. Could it be better lit at night? Yes. Should it be better lit at night and filled with more businesses open at night? Of course. That's an entirely different story from perceptions largely based on racial demographics.