Landing To Be Razed, Are Taxpayers Screwed?

[Tacachale]

Not sure if it's been reported, but as part of the settlement with Sleiman, the parking lot east of the Landing is reverting back to city ownership.

This is a seperate parcel from the city-owned Landing property, which we technically owed Sleiman over $5 million with interest for.

When you factor that piece in, the cost of the Landing settlement itself is closer to $10 million.

Certainly doesn't make it any better.

Look for the mayor to continue his WOR* at the Main Street Bridge once the demo is complete in the fall.

*War on Ramps

I don't think that's correct.

[KenFSU]

Not sure if it's been reported, but as part of the settlement with Sleiman, the parking lot east of the Landing is reverting back to city ownership.

This is a seperate parcel from the city-owned Landing property, which we technically owed Sleiman over $5 million with interest for.

When you factor that piece in, the cost of the Landing settlement itself is closer to $10 million.

Certainly doesn't make it any better.

Look for the mayor to continue his WOR* at the Main Street Bridge once the demo is complete in the fall.

*War on Ramps

I don't think that's correct.

Which part?

The outstanding liability to Sleiman?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sleiman paid the city $4.5ish million for the lot, and then the city kept the money and never transferred the title to Sleiman.

Was going to go to court seperately prior to the settlement.

[Tacachale]

Not sure if it's been reported, but as part of the settlement with Sleiman, the parking lot east of the Landing is reverting back to city ownership.

This is a seperate parcel from the city-owned Landing property, which we technically owed Sleiman over $5 million with interest for.

When you factor that piece in, the cost of the Landing settlement itself is closer to $10 million.

Certainly doesn't make it any better.

Look for the mayor to continue his WOR* at the Main Street Bridge once the demo is complete in the fall.

*War on Ramps

I don't think that's correct.

Which part?

The outstanding liability to Sleiman?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sleiman paid the city $4.5ish million for the lot, and then the city kept the money and never transferred the title to Sleiman.

Was going to go to court seperately prior to the settlement.

Yes, that part. We're looking into it. You are probably correct about the ramps.

[thelakelander]

History escapes me. Why exactly did the council kill Brown's $11.8 million Landing deal, which also involved ramp removal? What's changed to make the current deal a better one?

[KenFSU]

Not sure if it's been reported, but as part of the settlement with Sleiman, the parking lot east of the Landing is reverting back to city ownership.

This is a seperate parcel from the city-owned Landing property, which we technically owed Sleiman over $5 million with interest for.

When you factor that piece in, the cost of the Landing settlement itself is closer to $10 million.

Certainly doesn't make it any better.

Look for the mayor to continue his WOR* at the Main Street Bridge once the demo is complete in the fall.

*War on Ramps

I don't think that's correct.

Which part?

The outstanding liability to Sleiman?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sleiman paid the city $4.5ish million for the lot, and then the city kept the money and never transferred the title to Sleiman.

Was going to go to court seperately prior to the settlement.

Yes, that part. We're looking into it. You are probably correct about the ramps.

Looking forward to seeing what you uncover!

...

Also, looking at all this available riverfront land, just throwing out a random question to anyone who may have an opinion:

Can someone with a better understanding of Cordish's business model than me speculate as to why it makes more sense to build in an isolated area at the sports complex and rely on a new office tenant to support the restaurant and retail, rather than moving in on some of these riverfront tracts (the Courthouse, the Landing, and all of the surface lots between the two) and building these same components on clean land, in a more desirable location, with more of a built-in employment and population base?

More specifically, what does Cordish/Iguana lose if they built Jacksonville Live! where the Landing is, the Iguana convention center at the Old Courthouse site, office space for JEA in the CBD, a hotel east of Berkman II, residential infill throughout the northbank, etc.? How's it more advantageous to start from scratch by the stadium?

Makes perfect sense to build near the sports complex in cities like Arlington where you've got 80+ Rangers games a year, or in Philly where you've got 80+ NBA/NHL games, but we're talking what, 9 NFL games a year? Plus 20 or 30 concerts.

Between the Landing, Old Courthouse site, and all the city-owned asphalt lots, couldn't Cordish build a pretty epic Power & Light-ish "district" from Hogan to Liberty, with plenty of room to grow toward the stadium as the market dictates?

Solves the mass transit issue.

Doesn't necessitate environmental remediation.

Doesn't require building a population base from scratch.

It's all still close enough to create synergy.

Just feels so prohobitive from every angle - pollution, transportation, population, infrastructure - to build at the sport complex, can't wrap my head around why Cordish/Lamping wouldn't be jumping on better land with more built-in advantage if they really wanted to succeed in Jacksonville.

[KenFSU]

History escapes me. Why exactly did the council kill Brown's $11.8 million Landing deal, which also involved ramp removal?

Sleiman's design was supremely unpopular.

The City Council tabled the request and asked Sleiman to work with the DIA on a better plan for the property.

By the time Sleiman was done developing new concepts, priorities had changed, Curry was in office, and the Landing was put on the backburner.

[thelakelander]

Also, looking at all this available riverfront land, just throwing out a random question to anyone who may have an opinion:

Can someone with a better understanding of Cordish's business model than me speculate as to why it makes more sense to build in an isolated area at the sports complex and rely on a new office tenant to support the restaurant and retail, rather than moving in on some of these riverfront tracts (the Courthouse, the Landing, and all of the surface lots between the two) and building these same components on clean land, in a more desirable location, with more of a built-in employment and population base?

More specifically, what does Cordish/Iguana lose if they built Jacksonville Live! where the Landing is, the Iguana convention center at the Old Courthouse site, office space for JEA in the CBD, a hotel east of Berkman II, residential infill throughout the northbank, etc.? How's it more advantageous to start from scratch by the stadium?

Makes perfect sense to build near the sports complex in cities like Arlington where you've got 80+ Rangers games a year, or in Philly where you've got 80+ NBA/NHL games, but we're talking what, 9 NFL games a year? Plus 20 or 30 concerts.

Between the Landing, Old Courthouse site, and all the city-owned asphalt lots, couldn't Cordish build a pretty epic Power & Light-ish "district" from Hogan to Liberty, with plenty of room to grow toward the stadium as the market dictates?

Solves the mass transit issue.

Doesn't necessitate environmental remediation.

Doesn't require building a population base from scratch.

It's all still close enough to create synergy.

Just feels so prohobitive from every angle - pollution, transportation, population, infrastructure - to build at the sport complex, can't wrap my head around why Cordish/Lamping wouldn't be jumping on better land with more built-in advantage if they really wanted to succeed in Jacksonville.

Seems Khan and Iguana's interest are primarily centered around creating an inclusive entertainment experience around the stadium and Cordish is only here because of that relationship. You could also call them the 21st century version of James Rouse who was wooed to town with similar flashy promises that were ultimately never met. However, Iguana and Cordish aren't stupid. The Sports district is a ghost town on most days. This is why the Hart Bridge ramps need to come down. That area is too isolated and empty to survive on its on. It needs the continuous flow and access to expressway traffic that will drive past its front door regardless of if something is going on there or not.

In a weird sort of way, the Northbank suffers from a similar fate. Most traffic through the urban core goes around downtown instead of through it.  Picking a "main" street and funneling more vehicular traffic through downtown on it would actually help fill vacant storefronts.

[marcuscnelson]

Seems Khan and Iguana's interest are primarily centered around creating an inclusive entertainment experience around the stadium and Cordish is only here because of that relationship. You could also call them the 21st century version of James Rouse who was wooed to town with similar flashy promises that were ultimately never met. However, Iguana and Cordish aren't stupid. The Sports district is a ghost town on most days. This is why the Hart Bridge ramps need to come down. That area is too isolated and empty to survive on its on. It needs the continuous flow and access to expressway traffic that will drive past its front door regardless of if something is going on there or not.

In a weird sort of way, the Northbank suffers from a similar fate. Most traffic through the urban core goes around downtown instead of through it.  Picking a "main" street and funneling more vehicular traffic through downtown on it would actually help fill vacant storefronts.

To me, I think it's a combination of both the "game changer" syndrome our city constantly suffers from combined with what I'd imagine to be a bit of a Disney complex on Khan's part. Curry has fallen into the trap of believing that somehow betting everything on one project means that said project will be the single shot in the arm necessary to make everything else fall into place, at great reward to himself and his allies.

Meanwhile Khan likely wants to have total control over everything that would be in and between a district like what he wants at Lot J and the Shipyards. Piecemeal projects with unpredictable elements that have even the potential to be unfavorable to his own design are out of the question. Khan has absolutely no problem at all with bending city officials to his will, nor would other NFL owners in similar positions across the country. He wants an urban playground for his dreams to flourish at the least personal cost to him, not the dirty work of genuinely having to rebuild an urban core.

[avonjax]

There are several reason for removing The Landing:

a) It's a sprawling 1980s suburban shopping mall occupying prime space in the CBD
b) The Landing blocks the heart of the CBD from connecting with the river, a key factor in vibrant downtown across the country.
c) A property half it's size in the same location should be generating 10 times the revenue for the city.
c) The architecture does not fit it's surroundings.
d) There's nothing meaningfully significant about it.
e) New construction allows for a wide variety of options and is incredibly more efficient.

Ok. In ten years while we are discussing what the next great plan for the empty trashed riverfront space that was once the Jacksonville Landing will be, give me a shout. Since Curry just won reelection plan on the wrecking ball to hit very, very soon. To me and my inner cynic, this is the final nail in the coffin for that part of downtown. We've been discussing the empty space on the Northbank for what, 20 years now and what has happened? NOTHING! The Hart ramps will come down, maybe in 2020 and how much longer before any progress there? Sorry guys. We will never catch up. The little town that can't.

[avonjax]

Seems Khan and Iguana's interest are primarily centered around creating an inclusive entertainment experience around the stadium and Cordish is only here because of that relationship. You could also call them the 21st century version of James Rouse who was wooed to town with similar flashy promises that were ultimately never met. However, Iguana and Cordish aren't stupid. The Sports district is a ghost town on most days. This is why the Hart Bridge ramps need to come down. That area is too isolated and empty to survive on its on. It needs the continuous flow and access to expressway traffic that will drive past its front door regardless of if something is going on there or not.

In a weird sort of way, the Northbank suffers from a similar fate. Most traffic through the urban core goes around downtown instead of through it.  Picking a "main" street and funneling more vehicular traffic through downtown on it would actually help fill vacant storefronts.

To me, I think it's a combination of both the "game changer" syndrome our city constantly suffers from combined with what I'd imagine to be a bit of a Disney complex on Khan's part. Curry has fallen into the trap of believing that somehow betting everything on one project means that said project will be the single shot in the arm necessary to make everything else fall into place, at great reward to himself and his allies.

Meanwhile Khan likely wants to have total control over everything that would be in and between a district like what he wants at Lot J and the Shipyards. Piecemeal projects with unpredictable elements that have even the potential to be unfavorable to his own design are out of the question. Khan has absolutely no problem at all with bending city officials to his will, nor would other NFL owners in similar positions across the country. He wants an urban playground for his dreams to flourish at the least personal cost to him, not the dirty work of genuinely having to rebuild an urban core.

Maybe Curry's legacy will be tearing down the remainder of DT.

[thelakelander]

The Hart ramps will come down, maybe in 2020 and how much longer before any progress there? Sorry guys. We will never catch up. The little town that can't.

The Hart ramps will eventually come down in a few years but Curry's second term will be up before a fraction of the stuff illustrated in Iguana's annual renderings come to fruition. Even if there were a market for everything and permitting was pulled today, it still take a few years. I mean, we've been looking at Iguana renderings for nearly five years already. Time flies when discussing future potential.

[Kerry]

Can someone with a better understanding of Cordish's business model than me speculate as to why it makes more sense to build in an isolated area at the sports complex and rely on a new office tenant to support the restaurant and retail, rather than moving in on some of these riverfront tracts (the Courthouse, the Landing, and all of the surface lots between the two) and building these same components on clean land, in a more desirable location, with more of a built-in employment and population base?

I have been asking myself that exact same question for years.  There is zero correlation between JaxLive (or whatever it all called) and the stadium - zero.  It really just shows that Khan and company have zero vision of their own.  They just go to the owner meetings and copy what the other owners are doing and I wouldn't be surprised if the NFL itself was behind it.  What happens to this development if the Jags do leave?  I see it as another tool to hold the City hostage to future demands.

[KenFSU]

You're right, Bill.

The settlement does not include the adjacent parking lot.

That piece is still moving forward to court.

So, really, it's the opposite of what I originally said.

Instead of thinking of it as a $10 million settlement ($13 million including demo and relocation), we could be looking at over $22 million in taxpayer dollars when all is said and done if the courts rule in Sleiman's favor on the lot.

[thelakelander]

Fixed it for you!

Instead of thinking of it as a $10 million settlement ($13 million including demo and relocation), we WILL be looking at over $22 million in taxpayer dollars when all is said and done if the courts rule in Sleiman's favor on the lot.

It doesn't matter if they rule in his favor or not. Either way, he's getting something between $4.2 million and $4.5 million for the East Lot. Maybe Alvin Brown was a better negotiator than we gave him credit for. 

[thelakelander]

Fion MacCools, Hooters and Compass Bank are the three tenants that will get lease buyout money. Of the 31 tenants remaining, only 4 had long term leases. The 4th, Chicago Pizza, was behind in rent and recently evicted:

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/03/20/three-jacksonville-landing-tenants-to-receive.html?iana=hpmvp_jac_news_headline