Can BRT be stopped?

[Brick]

What more does JTA have to do to make BRT a reality?  Does the plan have to go before the Mayor and City Council for approval?

Surely someone within the administration can see how bad this would be for the core!?!

What can we do?

[thelakelander]

1. $100 million in BJP funds are set aside to purchase ROW.  I believe the council would still have to grant JTA approval when the time arrives for them to spend it.

2. Most of this project would be funded by the Feds.  Without Federal funding its a no go. 

With that said, its not easy, but it can be stopped or at least altered in a fashion that works best for the entire community, instead of JTA's wants.  Since the council directly has a say in it, that's an avenue to attack.  To do that public education is also a key component.  If the general public can get riled up about $750 million being flushed down the toilet, politicians will be much more likely to listen to the masses, then a few rightfully concerned residents. 

In the event, that the council goes hook, line and sinker, then you can take it to the Federal level by proving it's a boondoggle or a pork project.  If successfully done, they just won't fund it, like Raleigh's bloated commuter rail project a couple of years ago.

[thelakelander]

Yes, the Feds paid for most of the skyway, but some funding was yanked, due to heavy opposition and low ridership numbers, so the whole system was never completed.  Imo, if JTA succeeds in spending the first couple of hundred million, the entire system still probably won't be built as planned because it will be overbudget, heavily opposed and ridership levels will be lower than JTA anticipates (no US city has figured out how to overcome bus stimga, so don't expect JTA to do it either).  Like the skyway, we'll end up with something people look at and say... Why in the world did we build this thing?  What were our leaders smoking?

[gatorback]

 *Sorry, I wanted to modify this not delete it.  My question was:

Did your federal fund the skyway system.  That has always been my understanding of that deal.

I'm sure once  the condos on the southbank are done, the ridership will skyrocket and continue to climb when they extend it to Riverside.

[thelakelander]

I wouldn't count on those condos boosting skyway ridership by that much.  If the St. John is built, the total number on units on the Southbank will still be less than 1,000 and not all of the residents will use the system on a regular basis.  I suspect it will benefit more from the Hilton hotel and Brooklyn Park projects, if they become reality.  JTA is also NOT actively planning to extend the skyway to Riverside.  Instead they will be extending the trolley shaped bus to Five Points/Riverside.

[gatorback]

Well, if say maybe 10 of those new condo owners start riding the skyway that would what, almost double the ridership?

[Ocklawaha]

Gatorback, shame on you man! I thought you understood JTA better then that... It would take 11.5 passengers daily to double the ridership on the Skyway, not 10 as you stated. (smile)

Really folks, the Skyway never got to the stadium, because the Mayor was afraid that people might use it, and if they did, it couldn't carry the load... Circular reasoning anyone? If we finish it, it might not succeed, so we don't finish it, because? It might not succeed... Huh?

Truth be told, it's that damn blue bridge that messes up the system. Whilst sitting on the Riverwalk in front of The Strand, we got the urge for a nice steak dinner. We could have walked out front to the Skyway, at Riverplace Station, and caught it to Central Station but... The walk from Central Station, to the Kansas City Steakhouse, (at the Hyatt) is just as far as the walk over the Main Street Bridge, and, directly into the Hyatt. So why fly JTA? The logical extension would be on down Bay to a station at Newnan.

As far as not being able to handle the load, wake up people! This thing is a type of train (even if each car sits on 3 truck tires and 16 guide tires... rubber of course). We COULD just get bigger cars or make longer trains. We could also retro-retro-fit the whole thing as a Skytrain, then as it got into the Burbs, it COULD hit ground level and fly along at 70 mph to the next station. Geepers Auntie Em, I'll ask the wizard to give JTA a brain when we reach the Emerald City. Oh S@#T, I forgot, the Skyway DOESN'T go to the Emerald City, it stops dead, on a moonscape,  21 blocks short.

Damn JTA and the broomstick they rode in on anyway! Where is old Uncle Sanford, Uncle Bill Jackson and little Willie Clarke Quantrail when I need them? At least THEY KNEW how to RIDE WITH THE DEVIL!

Ocklawaha

[Ocklawaha]

SKYWAY



Not only would this extension open up Fairfield to the Central Business District, it could also serve as a major parking and commuter hub at the Union Street Station. A big parking garage with retail and food services, BRT to Arlington, City Bus, Light Rail, as well as, auto ,or bike commuters, all in one place. Add covered walks to the stadiums and we'd be in high cotton!

Ocklawaha

[downtownparks]

We have talked about the need to expand the skyway to the sport district. It has gotten big push back because of the cost, and the fact they everyone simply points to the skyway and shows what a huge failure it was... Sadly, nobody wants to make it more successful. imagine if you could walk out of your job at the Modis building, hop on the skyway and go to a concert or a baseball game... would you bother getting into your car and driving 12 city blocks?

[gatorback]

Just think, if the Beach Pneumatic Transit Line was never developed in 1869, we probably would not be having  this discussion.  That 1st NYC line ran what, 1 block?  I laugh at the city you live in, yet salute Toyota for developing the Prius.  Yes, hybrids are not perfect, but Toyota did it.  Same with Honda, they just did it.  Why?  Because it's the right thing to do.   

[02roadking]

This is from Tony's blog today: 
 
http://theurbancoredotcom.blogspot.com/


Friday, August 24, 2007
WHO IS BUYING THE BRT? AND WHY ARE THEY SELLING BAY, FORSYTH, and ADAMS?

In the old Jacksonville you could say something about what downtown businesses and stakeholders thought of a certain project or legislation. People would believe you whether it was true or not. That was then.

I was sent a post from an ongoing story of how JTA is selling the BRT at the expense of downtown. It is from MetroJacksonville who has done multiple studies and comparisons. Things you would want to see like what other cities are doing this. What are the successes? What cities are doing alternatives (like the much cheaper and efficient light rail)? Click around the MJ site and read up. In fact, search the term "BRT" and you will find 30 stories most are specifically about the BRT, ahem, project.

Now click on over to JTA. There is no compelling story at JTA on the subject. Nothing really informative at all unless you can travel back in time and go to the meetings listed. This system is estimated (several changes) to cost between $300 million and $750 and this is your communication to world. WTF?

No WAIT, click the teeny-tiny "What's New" button on the left and you get a ton of stuff. Maybe their web designer thought this was a good idea. But I warn you, if you download this brochure, while it looks nice, the exhaust will burn your eyes. Especially if you like to sit outside of your favorite cafe/bar/restaurant/coffeehouse. Here is an even more recent brochure to download focusing on the Bay, Adams, Forsyth route. Why not State and Union? Seriously. Isn't it built for it already? Wouldn't it be much cheaper and convenient? Isn't it hooked directly to skyway? Doesn't that mean anything?

Thankfully the MJ folks are attending meetings and reporting results. Because frankly I am at too many taskforce/groups/committee/non-profit/community meetings myself right now. BIG Thanks to those guys and anyone who can make these meetings. From the beautiful historic core of a great Florida city on the mighty St Johns. Seriously. Thanks.

I especially applaud Lakelander (seasoned urban architect and planner) and Ocklawaha (best I can tell the most experienced transportation person outside of JTA and DOT- and possibly inside, who knows?) Ock had this to say in a recent post about a public BRT meeting:


Overall, I thought most meant well, but were completely ignorant of the different types of mass transit and the true costs and effects of BRT's flexibility and rubber wheels on transit oriented development. I even got in a shouting match with two who felt BRT should run roughshed through Adams Street, instead of State & Union. One lady even mentioned that we shouldn't be concerned about the effects of BRT on downtown and that we were there to push transit, not downtown development. Another fellow (who claimed to live on Church Street), questioned how involved I am in the downtown scene and flat out stated that downtown residents, businesses, DVI and the JEDC wanted BRT down Adams, Bay & Forsyth.


DVI has spoken against the current plan publicly. Secondly, I know of not one resident or business who supports 24/7 bus only traffic shoved up Adams, Bay, and Forsyth Streets. Not one. I would guess that I know as many or more residents and businesses downtown than anyone in the core. Just a guess. I could be wrong.

I feel that if somebody supported this they are wise not talk about it. Because talking about it would bring public input, public education on the subject, and some serious logic exercises. Public input would kill an idea that costs $300-750 + million and is based on busing up our emerging downtown districts in the year 2030. Who is getting paid here? Who makes money on this deal? THAT party needs to arrange an outreach better than this "what's new". This is pitiful.

Whomever it is also needs to consider if its worth the fight. Because at this point the adversary is just annoying. If they are unwilling to consider the simple yet critical move to non-vibrant streets, that says a lot. If not, I hope they are prepared to get a lot worse than Ock and Lake.
Labels: BRT WTF, green is the new black

posted by Allegretti Consulting at 8:02 AM links to this post
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[02roadking]

Would a petition of sorts be enough to stop the BRT as planned for DT. Maybe they feel that they can get this done because they believe there will not be enough resistance from folks DT to make this an issue, afterall, there is only a few thousand of us.       
  Don't tread on my Bay, Forsyth or Adams Streets

[thelakelander]

Btw, consultants did give us an update on their plans for downtown.  Due to the concern about BRT on Adams, JTA will:

1. Purchase or make arrangements in existing garages to supply the parallel parking spaces that will be lost directly in front of the businesses.

reality: Its still a net loss of parking spaces and the convience of potentially parking directly in front or nearby businesses is completely eliminated.

2. Use only low emission buses on Adams.

Reality: After a year of direct protests and numerous negative examples of bus transit malls provided by Metro Jacksonville, JTA still can't produce one successful example of what they are planning to run down Adams Street.  Emissions aside, buses traveling at 30-35 mph are not conductive to a sidewalk environment with outdoor cafes and seating areas.

Furthermore, if this becomes the consolidated east-west busway, how can a promise be made to use only low emission buses on it?  What's going to happen with the existing fleet?  Financially, there's no way JTA can afford to replace the entire thing or even half of the buses within two or three years (they hope downtown BRT is up and running around 2009/2010).

3. Instead of one bus for every 90 seconds, there will be one bus for every five minutes.

Reality: Wasn't the excuse of not being able to use State & Union was because they were too busy?  With the terminal being located there now, isn't the amount of buses already traveling on these streets within range of a bus every five minutes or so?  If so, with that transit station in place and the connection to the skyway, why change the route to the detriment of the downtown core?

Last, but not least, this is the same group that claimed in 1989 the skyway would average 10,000 riders a day on the link between Central Station and the Prime Osborn.  18 years later, the entire system averages less than 4,000 riders a day.

Riderless Express
http://www.lava.net/cslater/Jacksfla.htm

[Ocklawaha]

We have well over 60 bus routes, as we saw on that wall map last night. Most of those routes start or end in the Downtown core. Most also run every 30 to 45 minutes. That's a heck of a lot more then one bus every 5 minutes. It's roughly 80 buses per hour or one every 45.122 seconds. Sounds like the kind of place I would like to sit at a nice sidewalk cafe, I think diesel smells good. It's those little black grains of carbon that dust the cheesecake that worry me...

Ocklawaha

[big ben]

It's roughly 80 buses per hour or one every 1.333 seconds.

isn't that more like one every 1.333 minutes?