Curry wants to move the jail

[bl8jaxnative]

From everything I've seen, this talk is to get the ball rolling.  This building will be well past 50 years old by the time any shovels hit the dirt.   There's nothing wrong with scrapping anything that old to better meet the community's needs.

[thelakelander]

I'm not sure there is a real need to get the ball rolling with the future of this specific site anymore than anything else related to Downtown. It's 2018. Will it even be fifty by 2035? This would be one of those things where having a real downtown vision, master plan and associated implementation timeline comes in handy. As discussed currently, one of my concerns is it would appear to be an expensive item being handled in a vacuum with little understanding of what a shift (and shift to where) will have on the overall downtown redevelopment picture and market as a whole.

[bl8jaxnative]

The price for replacing the buildings in the complex is only part of the cost.  There are costs to keeping it as is, where it is today.  For example, how might the east side of downtown look if it wasn't full of bail bonds offices?   What other sort of unseen costs are there?Other opportunity costs? 

It's easy to see the big cost of rebuilding all the complex.  But those things wouldn't need to be done at once nor all together, if ever.  The police HQ, the memorial building and the jail do not need to all be co-located.  The majority of what JSO does is not housing inmates.  Most of it's office needs don't need to be located next to the jail.

The current  complex was designed and built at a time when Riverplace Tower was the tallest building in Florida.  It was designed and built at a time with from there to Commodore Point was a string of gritty, dirty, industrial shipping docks.  It was designed and built at a time when people believe city-county consolidation was going to make things better, not harder.

A lot, a whole heck of a lot, has changed since then.   

[thelakelander]

I hear what you're saying but my point is that you apply that logic to a lot of other issues facing the city. For example, the Northwest side of the city is still waiting for infrastructure promises made before consolidation.  What are the opportunity costs for providing the infrastructure necessary for economic stabilization and rebirth that's larger, denser, more populated and more authentic to Jax's historic culture? So when we start making it a priority to possibly spend $400 million on replacing something that still has decades of life left, you can't blame taxpayers for being concerned about misplaced priorities and investments coming at the expense of long time unfulfilled quality of life promises.

[Bill Hoff]

Looks like Curry is serious about moving the jail sooner than later. When it comes to the funding: "we'll figure it out".

It's extremely clear he's going to attempt to do everything Khan wants, to try and fit the start of the Shipyards/Lot J development into this economic cycle: "Right now we have real capital, real money that is ready to go in the entertainment district. We can't miss this window. We cannot miss this window."

Tick tock.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/12/10/mayor-curry-doubles-down-on-promise-to-move-jail.html

[downtownbrown]

the point he makes about generating greater revenue through taxes is a good one.  I'd sure like to see that spreadsheet...

[KenFSU]

the point he makes about generating greater revenue through taxes is a good one.  I'd sure like to see that spreadsheet...

I don't think it would be a pretty spreadsheet.

We're talking simple supply and demand here.

Between Met Park, the Shipyards, Berkman II, and the Courthouse/Annex site, the city of Jacksonville is sitting on nearly 100 acres of prime riverfront real estate that we've barely been able to give away for free in the last 10 years.

Once the Jags/Cordish complete the first phase of their Lot J project and the Hart Bridge ramps come down, we'll still be sitting on 100 acres of prime riverfront real estate.

Where's the market demand for a few acres two blocks off the riverfront coming from? And how in the world is the price tag that property commands going to justify a $400 million relocation of the jail?

$400 million is what we paid for Veterans Arena, the Baseball Grounds, the Main Library, and Daily's Place combined, with enough left over to build the Emerald Necklace 5 times over.

Squeeze another 15-20 years of life out of the prison where it's at, see what happens with all this other development, and then create the spreadsheet.

It's crazy to me that we're prioritizing tearing down the Hart Bridge ramps, making long-term convention center decisions, and potentially spending $400 million to relocate the jail based on unsigned, speculative plans by the Jags to develop badly contaminated land.

All of this comes with an opportunity cost.

Can you imagine what we could have done with the $100 million that we've burned in the last three years turning the Courthouse and Annex into a gravel lot?

[thelakelander]

the point he makes about generating greater revenue through taxes is a good one.  I'd sure like to see that spreadsheet...

He should make it for the Northside, which has been deprived of promised infrastructure investments by the city for 50 years.

[thelakelander]

the point he makes about generating greater revenue through taxes is a good one.  I'd sure like to see that spreadsheet...

I don't think it would be a pretty spreadsheet.

We're talking simple supply and demand here.

Between Met Park, the Shipyards, Berkman II, and the Courthouse/Annex site, the city of Jacksonville is sitting on nearly 100 acres of prime riverfront real estate that we've barely been able to give away for free in the last 10 years.

Once the Jags/Cordish complete the first phase of their Lot J project and the Hart Bridge ramps come down, we'll still be sitting on 100 acres of prime riverfront real estate.

Where's the market demand for a few acres two blocks off the riverfront coming from? And how in the world is the price tag that property commands going to justify a $400 million relocation of the jail?

$400 million is what we paid for Veterans Arena, the Baseball Grounds, the Main Library, and Daily's Place combined, with enough left over to build the Emerald Necklace 5 times over.

Squeeze another 15-20 years of life out of the prison where it's at, see what happens with all this other development, and then create the spreadsheet.

It's crazy to me that we're prioritizing tearing down the Hart Bridge ramps, making long-term convention center decisions, and potentially spending $400 million to relocate the jail based on unsigned, speculative plans by the Jags to develop badly contaminated land.

All of this comes with an opportunity cost.

Can you imagine what we could have done with the $100 million that we've burned in the last three years turning the Courthouse and Annex into a gravel lot?

The Shipyards won't be done in 15-20 years much less the District, Khan or no Khan. The market can only absorb so much for a metropolitan area our size.

[Kiva]

Can you imagine what we could have done with the $100 million that we've burned in the last three years turning the Courthouse and Annex into a gravel lot?

We could have given $500,000 grants to 200 businesses to move downtown. A lot of people could open a successful business for that kind of money!

[Charles Hunter]

Hmm - I was sure I posted on this thread, but don't see it now.  Will try to remember what I said ... 

[KenFSU]

^Did you call Stephen's abuse of moderator powers into question?

If so, it's against the rules.

It can only be done in private.

It's healthier that way.

[Charles Hunter]

Wouldn't dare do that.

[Charles Hunter]

Some thoughts about moving the pre-trial detention facility, and JSO HQ.

1.  It was mentioned earlier that one reason to consider moving the jail is that it will reach prisoner capacity in a few years.
.a. How would it affect capacity for local prisoners awaiting trial, if we didn't contract out space for state (and federal) prisoners?  How would stopping this practice affect the operating budget?
.b. How will the legalization of recreational marijuana affect jail population figures.  Given the long-term view for the new/relocated facility, I expect that legal pot will happen within that time-frame.

2.  What does the $400 Million cost include?
.a. Does it include demolition of the existing facilities?  As mentioned, perhaps the Police Memorial Building could be re-purposed, but I don't see what else you can do with a building designed to incarcerate people.  If demo is not included, how much does it increase the $400 million; or decrease the purchase price?
.b. Looking at an aerial of the site, it seems only logical that the Hart Ramps to/from Forsyth and Adams Streets be removed.  Does that become part of the relocation cost?  Removing those ramps will "square up" the parcel; and, of course, improve the views from/of the site.

3.  I would love to see an opportunity cost analysis of this project, especially in comparison to other potential uses of nearly (over?) a half-billion dollars; for example, the long-promised, and much-needed, infrastructure improvements in NW Jax.

4.  To bl8's comment, "The police HQ, the memorial building and the jail do not need to all be co-located."  Aren't the "police HQ" and the "memorial building" one and the same?

[Charles Hunter]

[engage snark mode] Maybe JSO's HQ can be moved to Lot J?  [end snark mode]