Convention Center Wars

[Kerry]

I think they only count tower cranes, not the little mobile ones.

[KenFSU]

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/11/15/after-a-year-of-work-jacksonvilleconvention-center.html

I think this, along with the recent rezoning, can pretty clearly be read as Curry saying, "we're giving the money to Khan's Lot J/Shipyards project instead."

Also implies that a very large ask is likely incoming on that front, and that we're likely prepared to meet it.

Still think "on hold" is going to end up equaling "on hold until 2020 when the ramps start to come down."

[thelakelander]

I think they only count tower cranes, not the little mobile ones.

Or maybe they only count cranes in the cities they do business in? I was in Miami three weeks ago. Here's a few random pictures with cranes in them:

[thelakelander]

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/11/15/after-a-year-of-work-jacksonvilleconvention-center.html

I think this, along with the recent rezoning, can pretty clearly be read as Curry saying, "we're giving the money to Khan's Lot J/Shipyards project instead."

Also implies that a very large ask is likely incoming on that front, and that we're likely prepared to meet it.

Still think "on hold" is going to end up equaling "on hold until 2020 when the ramps start to come down."

2020 is right around the corner and it's still not a given those ramps will come down then. The only real thing we can 100% book on coming in is a huge request for incentives from Iguana.

[downtownbrown]

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/11/15/after-a-year-of-work-jacksonvilleconvention-center.html?ana=e_me_set1&s=newsletter&ed=2018-11-15&u=WlI%2BuS2dnrpUQEXzA1dC%2FQ0a72b012&t=1542290419&j=85039991

As to the original question in this string, we don't know who will win the convention center war, but I think we now know who loses.

Us. 

[thelakelander]

Is there a war between these two? I've always assumed Curry and Khan were on the same side. The war to me would be to make sure that these big subsidized projects a mile outside of the real downtown core will benefit the "core" and not compete or pull economic opportunities from it? With that in mind, we (the public) are losing. Lot J, convention center stuff, recruitment of JEA from the heart of the city, are all things that don't build upon our assets.......instead they simply relocate them.

[KenFSU]

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/11/15/after-a-year-of-work-jacksonvilleconvention-center.html

I think this, along with the recent rezoning, can pretty clearly be read as Curry saying, "we're giving the money to Khan's Lot J/Shipyards project instead."

Also implies that a very large ask is likely incoming on that front, and that we're likely prepared to meet it.

Still think "on hold" is going to end up equaling "on hold until 2020 when the ramps start to come down."

2020 is right around the corner and it's still not a given those ramps will come down then. The only real thing we can 100% book on coming in is a huge request for incentives from Iguana.

Zero chance they're down by 2020 - late-2020 is the city's new projection for ramp removal to begin, pending the awarding of federal grants next month - but as soon as the first bolt comes off, I think Khan starts pushing for a convention center at the Shipyards again.

Taking Curry's decision to place the project on hold at face value, I totally agree with it.

As the 2014 study pointed out, an expensive new convention center is dead in the water in Jacksonville until we have more infrastructure in place to support it. We shouldn't be spending hundreds of millions of dollars on any center until we're sure our downtown is vibrant enough that event planners actually want to return a second time.

Personally, I think we've got bigger needs in the short-term.

But again, this begs the most obvious question, what the hell are we doing at the old Courthouse site? Putting the decision on where to locate a convention center on hold is going to cost us millions either way with that property. If we decide to build a convention center at the Shipyards, we've prioritized tens of millions of dollars needlessly rushing to demolish the Courthouse and Annex only to change our mind about the property. And if we build at the Courthouse site, per the responses, we're likely going to have to rebuild a large portion of the deck that we're currently removing, and the riverwalk extension that we're building around the inlet is liking going to be built right over as well.

As a taxpayer, everything about that property irritates me.

[Kerry]

I think they only count tower cranes, not the little mobile ones.

Or maybe they only count cranes in the cities they do business in? I was in Miami three weeks ago. Here's a few random pictures with cranes in them:

Good point and that must be it.  I thought Phoenix having 4 and being on the list seemed odd.

[thelakelander]

Zero chance they're down by 2020 - late-2020 is the city's new projection for ramp removal to begin, pending the awarding of federal grants next month - but as soon as the first bolt comes off, I think Khan starts pushing for a convention center at the Shipyards again.

I think Khan is likely to change his renderings again two years from now, depending on where the economy will be headed. I'm also concerned about the process and vision of the viaduct removal. When first proposed, I envisioned something like San Francisco's Embarcadero. Now I'm realizing we could easily end up with nothing more than a repaved Gator Bowl Boulevard and at best, another Riverside Avenue. In other words, it doesn't sound like there's a collective vision or end game that all these projects are being designed to help create.

Taking Curry's decision to place the project on hold at face value, I totally agree with it.

At face value, I agree.....if we're talking about the hack job of a RFP that resulted in a bloated center and budget. Under no circumstances should we fund $1 billion for a convention center at any location in the city.

As the 2014 study pointed out, an expensive new convention center is dead in the water in Jacksonville until we have more infrastructure in place to support it. We shouldn't be spending hundreds of millions of dollars on any center until we're sure our downtown is vibrant enough that event planners actually want to return a second time.

This is a false narrative and one of the things I hate about Jax's revitalization talk. We don't need a hundreds of millions of dollars center. We already invested $20 million in a convention center hotel that has existing ballroom and meeting facilities. What we lack is an exhibition hall of decent size. If we address that particular issue by combining it with what we already have, I believe we could easily relocate the center from the Prime Osborn now and move on to other things, without tossing hundreds of millions of more public money into this thing.

Personally, I think we've got bigger needs in the short-term.

We do. However, the bigger, short-term needs aren't necessarily money related IMO. They're a mix of resolving political battles, investing in public infrastructure and spaces and modifying policy to make it easier for organic growth and inclusive economic opportunity to take place. There's a reason the Rail Yard District, Murray Hill, Springfield, etc. appear to be getting cool projects and businesses without the use of significant tax incentives. Maybe we should consider taking our hands out of the downtown redevelopment cookie jar and letting the market play a larger role in the process?  That process may sink a Shipyards or District type of project in the short term but it would possibly result in a higher ROI for the community and more fast-paced visual change in the public image and perception towards downtown.

But again, this begs the most obvious question, what the hell are we doing at the old Courthouse site? Putting the decision on where to locate a convention center on hold is going to cost us millions either way with that property. If we decide to build a convention center at the Shipyards, we've prioritized tens of millions of dollars needlessly rushing to demolish the Courthouse and Annex only to change our mind about the property. And if we build at the Courthouse site, per the responses, we're likely going to have to rebuild a large portion of the deck that we're currently removing, and the riverwalk extension that we're building around the inlet is liking going to be built right over as well.

As a taxpayer, everything about that property irritates me.

I agree. I can only accept that it means our political leaders don't have a clue. I still see it as extremely crazy that we didn't solicit a RFP for these buildings before using public funds to demolish them. We'll be looking at $8 million grass parking lots for the foreseeable future and some people actually believe that's an improvement! It's like we're reliving the failed redevelopment strategies of the 1990s and expecting things to turn out differently this time.

[RiversideRambler]

Looking at this from my layman's perspective, a big convention center seems a lot like a professional sports team. Great for the tourism brochure, expensive for the taxpayers. Why not simply work with Hyatt to build a real exhibit hall on the courtyard property? It seems like the most cost effective method.

I think Jacksonville has a lot to offer but it's not even a second tier city for meeting planners and no convention center will change that.

[KenFSU]

Is there a war between these two? I've always assumed Curry and Khan were on the same side. The war to me would be to make sure that these big subsidized projects a mile outside of the real downtown core will benefit the "core" and not compete or pull economic opportunities from it? With that in mind, we (the public) are losing. Lot J, convention center stuff, recruitment of JEA from the heart of the city, are all things that don't build upon our assets.......instead they simply relocate them.

They're 100% on the same side, though Khan's clearly got the leverage.

Everything changed after that secretive trip that Curry took with Khan and Lamping to meet with Cordish and tour the KC, Baltimore, and St. Louis developments.

Curry started aggressively petitioning the state and federal government for money to bring down the Hart Bridge ramps.

He started ratcheting up the pressure on Sleiman to surrender the Landing.

We started to hear about this "dumb bell" approach to revitalizing downtown.

JEA's relocation plans were upended.

Personally, I don't envy Curry. He's doing some really good things in and around the urban core, and he clearly wants to leave a legacy as the mayor who revitalized downtown. But the Jags lease comes up in a decade, no mayor wants to lose a sports franchise (or additional home games) on his watch, and agreeing to play ball in the stadium district could realistically be the difference between rooting the franchise here for another 20 years or driving them off.

He's ultimately serving two different masters "downtown," the public and the Jags, which don't necessarily have the same interests.

Also, I wonder how much of the letter about how daunting the project is and how we're putting it on hold has to do with avoiding a lawsuit from the firms who put together very expensive proposals for the Courthouse site?

[thelakelander]

Personally, I don't envy Curry. He's doing some really good things in and around the urban core, and he clearly wants to leave a legacy as the mayor who revitalized downtown. But the Jags lease comes up in a decade, no mayor wants to lose a sports franchise (or additional home games) on his watch, and agreeing to play ball in the stadium district could realistically be the difference between rooting the franchise here for another 20 years or driving them off.

He's ultimately serving two different masters "downtown," the public and the Jags, which don't necessarily have the same interests.

There's no reason downtown revitalization and working with the Jags can't co-exist. However, to truly co-exist, it does mean there needs to be a high level of understanding simple urban revitalization principles and techniques included to ensure projects complement rather than compete. Transit connectivity is an easy way to start the process of pulling together things. However, it doesn't even appear that there's seamless coordination and visioning with JTA, who appears to have their own dream that appears to conflict to a degree.

[Steve]

Looking at this from my layman's perspective, a big convention center seems a lot like a professional sports team. Great for the tourism brochure, expensive for the taxpayers. Why not simply work with Hyatt to build a real exhibit hall on the courtyard property? It seems like the most cost effective method.

I think Jacksonville has a lot to offer but it's not even a second tier city for meeting planners and no convention center will change that.

Here's my reason for wanting the convention center: It helps retail/restaurant businesses in the core, particularly early in the week. Most bars wouldn't have a problem filling the place Thursday/Friday/Saturday. The problem is the business has to pay rent every day of the week. Monday/Tuesday/Wednesday are popular days for business conventions....you know the ones where business travelers have an expense account and don't mind staying out late because the wife and kids are out of town and they don't REALLY have work the next day.

This is one of the biggest things boosting San Diego's Gaslamp District.

[thelakelander]

Also....what is this "dumb bell" approach to revitalization?  If it's some concept of development in Brooklyn and the Sports District first and that spilling over into the downtown core, then that's one of the most craziest things I've heard. I can't think of one peer city that has successfully revitalized their downtown with such an approach.

[thelakelander]

Looking at this from my layman's perspective, a big convention center seems a lot like a professional sports team. Great for the tourism brochure, expensive for the taxpayers. Why not simply work with Hyatt to build a real exhibit hall on the courtyard property? It seems like the most cost effective method.

I think Jacksonville has a lot to offer but it's not even a second tier city for meeting planners and no convention center will change that.

Here's my reason for wanting the convention center: It helps retail/restaurant businesses in the core, particularly early in the week. Most bars wouldn't have a problem filling the place Thursday/Friday/Saturday. The problem is the business has to pay rent every day of the week. Monday/Tuesday/Wednesday are popular days for business conventions....you know the ones where business travelers have an expense account and don't mind staying out late because the wife and kids are out of town and they don't REALLY have work the next day.

This is one of the biggest things boosting San Diego's Gaslamp District.

I believe we could easily add a no-frills exhibition hall to the Hyatt and accomplish this for a fraction of the costs and amount of minimal criteria for the convention center RFP.