Vestcor at it again - Lofts at Cathedral

[MusicMan]

"We could dump 10,000 new residents in the core today and it still won't be dense. IMO, keep them coming....luxury, workforce and affordable."

No but 10,000 new residents would make a difference, if "dumped" in the next year.  We're a long way from 10,000.....  I'm betting every business owner downtown would welcome 10,000 new residents...

[thelakelander]

Yes. That's why I say keep them coming. We're not at a time where we should be denying or worrying about having too much workforce and affordable housing.

[Tacachale]

I really don't get the resistance to workforce housing. It's not like it'll make the current underpopulated downtown worse, or hold up luxury developments.

[Captain Zissou]

All this workforce housing is not going to keep seats filled at Symphony Hall/TU PAC, The Florida Theater, Cowford Chophouse, or all the lovely little craft cocktail bars (i.e. $13 for a Manhattan) that are popping up downtown. Or seats at TIAA Bank Field.

It's just more people with little or no disposable income filling up downtown.

So this is all about people coming to support your business?  Sorry these aren't desirable people to you, but I would say that they will still result in an increase in business.  I would say the downtown crowd, no matter the income, are more inclined to visit cultural institutions.  Maybe they can't afford a normal symphony production, but they could definitely afford a Symphony in 60 event that gives free beer at the end. They may not be everyday customers, but once or twice a year for sure. 
Conversely, the well to do people who move to St Johns County will likely never come to a symphony event.  So while it may not be a tower filled with Shad Khan, Wilson Fisk, and Peter Rummels, any resident that chooses the urban lifestyle over the burbs is a win for Jax.

[acme54321]

No worries.  The building will be made of wood so you won't have to worry about it for long!   

[KenFSU]

All this workforce housing is not going to keep seats filled at Symphony Hall/TU PAC, The Florida Theater, Cowford Chophouse, or all the lovely little craft cocktail bars (i.e. $13 for a Manhattan) that are popping up downtown. Or seats at TIAA Bank Field.

It's just more people with little or no disposable income filling up downtown.

This is a really scary attitude.

It also suggests that our downtown - which is littered with surface parking lots, undeveloped riverfront tracts, and 73 vacant historic buildings - is somehow so space-constrained that five Vestcor workforce housing developments will "fill it up."

More lower income, working residents in the urban core might not necessarily boost Cowford Chophouse reservations, but they'll certainly boost sales for dozens of other casual restaurants, convenient stores, coffee shops, etc. in the downtown area.

And more heads lead to more retail, increased vibrancy, and ultimately more investment in the urban core.

There's PLENTY of space to go around for market rate units (just ask Vestcor, who previously developed 11E and Carling).

Plus, it's not like workforce housing is even outpacing market rate. In addition to the Barnett (108 units), all indications are that the Ambassador apartments (200 units) are going to be market rate, as is Jones Furniture (no permits yet, but there's a crew in the building working on something today), the Ventures property next to the Aetna building (185 units), plus 263 units under construction next to the school board building, 345 units at the old Baptist Convention site on the Southbank, etc.

[MusicMan]

You left out Catalyst Development Partners on Home Street, the only ones actually beginning construction, with no freaking help from the City by the way.

Sorry I offended all you guys. Here's my proposal: lets meet for a downtown walk around on Sunday morning.  We can start at the stadium, stare out over The Shipyards at the empty river, walk toward The Landing past Berkman 2 and the jail. Stroll through The Landing, count the people. Go around the new library, and notice all the residents spending $$ doing?  Dodge the excrement when necessary, and get a coffee at your choice of venues.

Not sure how many of you actually work downtown but I do (symphony musician for 12 years).  I would love to go to work in a vibrant downtown, but it's still way off. And, as Lake has pointed out many times,  there is no coherent vision for downtown going forward. I'm pretty sure I'm at least 10 years older than most of you (maybe more) but I've invested the last 12 years trying to be a part of making downtown Jax something special and it's tiresome to stare at an unfinished concrete shell for 10 years wondering how it can still be there.

The Symphony is busting it's ass to do world class performing arts in the heart of the CBD and we cannot even get SMG/COJ to replace the 25 year old broken marquee in front of the TUPAC. I never said a bad thing about workforce housing, I only brought into question the ratio of market rate to subsidized, and I'm giving my opinion too much subsidized housing brings the overall price point (for all housing) and level of investor interest DOWN.

By the way, for all of you wanting to do something downtown this weekend, the Symphony is presenting "The Music of The Who"

Incredible set list............... Hope to see you there!

[blizz01]

I live in the burbs - can I come?

[jaxnyc79]

Agree (with Bill). If you own property within 5 blocks of the old Barnett Bank building, The District (or any other development in SM) will have very little impact on you. 

That's my opinion.

All this workforce housing is not going to keep seats filled at Symphony Hall/TU PAC, The Florida Theater, Cowford Chophouse, or all the lovely little craft cocktail bars (i.e. $13 for a Manhattan) that are popping up downtown. Or seats at TIAA Bank Field.

It's just more people with little or no disposable income filling up downtown.

Lake.... The District (or whatever ends up being there) is YEARS AWAY from completion.

If investors believed what you are saying they would be swooping in and picking up every little parcel and vacant building around all these workforce developments, and that is NOT happening.

I'm very interested to see how this all shakes out.  The idea of a dense, walkable, "blue-collar" urban core that achieves vitality through workforce, low-to-medium middle-class housing as opposed to luxury units will be interesting to watch.  Frankly, I have always been a bit skeptical of Jax ambitions to fill its blocks with luxury housing...a sort of trickle-down aspiration...when that doesn't really reflect Jax at large.

[Bill Hoff]

I really don't get the resistance to workforce housing. It's not like it'll make the current underpopulated downtown worse, or hold up luxury developments.

People equate workforce & affordable housing with the low income housing projects they see & hear about, that's why.

[jagsonville]

What are income limits for workforce housing?

[thelakelander]

I really don't get the resistance to workforce housing. It's not like it'll make the current underpopulated downtown worse, or hold up luxury developments.

People equate workforce & affordable housing with the low income housing projects they see & hear about, that's why.

SOME....people. The worse thing we can do in the revitalization process is to make decisions based on a perspective by a small group of people that have not looked at the bigger picture or seriously considered perspectives, cultures and economic classes that they may not be personally familiar with. In reality, W=what Vesctor is doing in downtown isn't unique to Jacksonville. Incorporating affordable and workforce housing in cities is a national issue right now.

[thelakelander]

What are income limits for workforce housing?

For the Lofts at Jefferson Station, that cap is $91,000 for a family of four. It's hard to make a claim that $91,000 annually in Jacksonville would be considered too poor to support downtown venues.

[thelakelander]

You left out Catalyst Development Partners on Home Street, the only ones actually beginning construction, with no freaking help from the City by the way.

Catalyst is getting millions in REV grants to make 10% of their units workforce housing. Broadstone, next to the school board, is the one building without city money.

I never said a bad thing about workforce housing, I only brought into question the ratio of market rate to subsidized, and I'm giving my opinion too much subsidized housing brings the overall price point (for all housing) and level of investor interest DOWN.

I seriously doubt DT Jax will ever reach such a point where a couple hundred units of affordable and workforce housing brings investor interest or overall market-rate housing prices down.

[Adam White]

What, exactly, is 'workforce housing'?

In the UK, there are shared ownership schemes where a person who qualifies (there are income requirements) gets a mortgage for a percentage of the property value (usually 25% these days) and then pays rent on the remaining share to the housing association. Over time, the part owner can increase his or her percentage of ownership, up to 100% (if desired). A lot of these schemes targeted 'key workers' - police, firefighters, teachers, healthcare workers, etc. But now they are open to just about anyone who qualifies. It's a good way to help people onto the property ladder and also a good way to get people living in areas that had become brownfield sites, etc.