Developer proposes 13-story Southbank apartment tower

[Captain Zissou]

It looks like the base of a much taller building that just got chopped of the top.... which is essentially what happened.

[fieldafm]

suburban looking apartment buildings

Doesn't look any different than waterfront multifamily developments in places like Baltimore, Washington DC or Greenville, SC.  This developer has been put through the ringer by their neighbor. With market conditions as they are, hope their numbers can work on this new site plan.. and hope it gets built. Part of this development will include a much-needed extension of the Southbank Riverwalk.


Baltimore


DC


Greenville

[jaxnyc79]

The cluster of structures in that area makes no sense to me.  I see this new building wedged in, I see Aetna, a parking garage about as vast as both Aetna and the new residential building put together.  The pedestrian experience there looks atrocious.  Having said that, I very much prefer low-rise and village-style construction on the immediate waterfront.  I hate building walls on the beach, and I'm not a fan of them along our waterfront downtown. 

[Steve]

The cluster of structures in that area makes no sense to me.  I see this new building wedged in, I see Aetna, a parking garage about as vast as both Aetna and the new residential building put together.  The pedestrian experience there looks atrocious.

The challenge is really the OneCall Building (built as the Prudential building), which was built in the 50s on a dirt site with zero consideration for pedestrians, really. There was a retail project proposed next to the garage which would have helped. Otherwise I think that little quadrant is going to be a challenge.

[acme54321]

The cluster of structures in that area makes no sense to me.  I see this new building wedged in, I see Aetna, a parking garage about as vast as both Aetna and the new residential building put together.  The pedestrian experience there looks atrocious.

The challenge is really the OneCall Building (built as the Prudential building), which was built in the 50s on a dirt site with zero consideration for pedestrians, really. There was a retail project proposed next to the garage which would have helped. Otherwise I think that little quadrant is going to be a challenge.

Hit the nail on the head.  There has never been anything pedestrian about this site, it's a hospital and a huge office building, I don't have too much of an issue with it.  Half of it didn't even exist until massive land reclaimation when the Once Call and Baptist complexes were built in the 50s.

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00071741/00010/39x?coord=30.316673219017776,-81.6628362226287,,

[Dolph1975]

Wow, that area is going to be even more of a cluster f*** during shift change at the hospital; morning and afternoon/evening rushes out of the 841 building oh and then add a train crossing....  I do not miss working at the former Aetna building.

[Adam White]

suburban looking apartment buildings

Doesn't look any different than waterfront multifamily developments in places like Baltimore, Washington DC or Greenville, SC.  This developer has been put through the ringer by their neighbor. With market conditions as they are, hope their numbers can work on this new site plan.. and hope it gets built. Part of this development will include a much-needed extension of the Southbank Riverwalk.

That doesn't mean it's not hideous. And the fact that they are happening elsewhere gives credence to copperfiend's complaint about such designs being part of a 'movement'.

[JBTripper]

suburban looking apartment buildings

Doesn't look any different than waterfront multifamily developments in places like Baltimore, Washington DC or Greenville, SC.  This developer has been put through the ringer by their neighbor. With market conditions as they are, hope their numbers can work on this new site plan.. and hope it gets built. Part of this development will include a much-needed extension of the Southbank Riverwalk.


Baltimore


DC


Greenville

Does it really qualify as an extension of the riverwalk if the connecting route runs about a half mile off the river, under the overpass, over the train tracks and then another quarter mile down this building's driveway? All for about 100 yards of riverfront sidewalk?

[fieldafm]

That doesn't mean it's not hideous. And the fact that they are happening elsewhere gives credence to copperfiend's complaint about such designs being part of a 'movement'.

'Hideous' is quite subjective. It looks like a pretty typical interpretation of modern architecture to me.

And to me the phrase 'suburban looking apartment buildings' would refer to a site layout which features large setbacks, surface parking with continuous parking drives, separate buildings with limited massing and limited connections to adjacent property. Based on the site design of this property, I wouldn't consider this to be a 'suburban looking apartment building'.

Does it really qualify as an extension of the riverwalk if the connecting route runs about a half mile off the river, under the overpass, over the train tracks and then another quarter mile down this building's driveway? All for about 100 yards of riverfront sidewalk?

Does it really qualify as an extension of the riverwalk? Yes, I would say it does.  I think it's easy to get caught up in what isn't there... and wanting everything to happen overnight. The truth is, these types of things are implemented incrementally over time. The Tampa Riverwalk, Waterfront Toronto (Toronto Harbour, Quay, etc) and the Atlanta Beltline didn't happen overnight... and in many cases, sections were built based on the development timeline of the surrounding area- and not based on whether everything lined up neatly together. 

Eventually, the shared use path across the Fuller Warren will be built. Those 'connecting routes about a half mile off the river' you mention will provide some kind of linkage with the Southbank Riverwalk and the Fuller Warren multi-use path.  In the future, there will be other sections of the Riverwalk built that will probably include over-water sections adjacent to Baptist and Nemours.... which will then link to the '100 yards of riverfront sidewalk' you are now bemoaning. Who knows, when that time comes to build those sections... there may even be a Southbank Riverwalk pedestrian bridge over the FEC train tracks constructed concurrently (much like the pedestrian bridge built on the Northbank Riverwalk... decades after the original Northbank Riverwalk was constructed). The key is, to get sections of the Riverwalk built as the adjoining land uses are developed. The gaps will be filled in incrementally, over time. Just because all of this doesn't happen overnight... isn't a reason not to sieze upon the opportunity that exists right here, right now.

We're pretty late in the real estate cycle... so, to me... not getting this site developed would be ashame... as it will likely sit vacant another 10+ years. I'm getting older, and I'd sure like to see progress in my lifetime. 

[Adam White]

That doesn't mean it's not hideous. And the fact that they are happening elsewhere gives credence to copperfiend's complaint about such designs being part of a 'movement'.

'Hideous' is quite subjective. It looks like a pretty typical interpretation of modern architecture to me.

And to me the phrase 'suburban looking apartment buildings' would refer to a site layout which features large setbacks, surface parking with continuous parking drives, separate buildings with limited massing and limited connections to adjacent property. Based on the site design of this property, I wouldn't consider this to be a 'suburban looking apartment building'.

Of course it's all subjective. I wouldn't consider that to be modern architecture though.

My read of his comments re 'suburban looking apartment buildings' was that he was referring to the architecture, not how they were situated on the land. But only he knows...

[Tacachale]

That doesn't mean it's not hideous. And the fact that they are happening elsewhere gives credence to copperfiend's complaint about such designs being part of a 'movement'.

'Hideous' is quite subjective. It looks like a pretty typical interpretation of modern architecture to me.

And to me the phrase 'suburban looking apartment buildings' would refer to a site layout which features large setbacks, surface parking with continuous parking drives, separate buildings with limited massing and limited connections to adjacent property. Based on the site design of this property, I wouldn't consider this to be a 'suburban looking apartment building'.

Of course it's all subjective. I wouldn't consider that to be modern architecture though.

My read of his comments re 'suburban looking apartment buildings' was that he was referring to the architecture, not how they were situated on the land. But only he knows...

It's a useful distinction. The layout has a lot more to do with how it interacts with the rest of the space than the aesthetics. There are lots of great modern buildings that are designed for a suburban lifestyle, and shitty buildings that are designed for an urban lifestyle.

Does it really qualify as an extension of the riverwalk if the connecting route runs about a half mile off the river, under the overpass, over the train tracks and then another quarter mile down this building's driveway? All for about 100 yards of riverfront sidewalk?

Does it really qualify as an extension of the riverwalk? Yes, I would say it does.  I think it's easy to get caught up in what isn't there... and wanting everything to happen overnight. The truth is, these types of things are implemented incrementally over time. The Tampa Riverwalk, Waterfront Toronto (Toronto Harbour, Quay, etc) and the Atlanta Beltline didn't happen overnight... and in many cases, sections were built based on the development timeline of the surrounding area- and not based on whether everything lined up neatly together. 

Eventually, the shared use path across the Fuller Warren will be built. Those 'connecting routes about a half mile off the river' you mention will provide some kind of linkage with the Southbank Riverwalk and the Fuller Warren multi-use path.  In the future, there will be other sections of the Riverwalk built that will probably include over-water sections adjacent to Baptist and Nemours.... which will then link to the '100 yards of riverfront sidewalk' you are now bemoaning. Who knows, when that time comes to build those sections... there may even be a Southbank Riverwalk pedestrian bridge over the FEC train tracks constructed concurrently (much like the pedestrian bridge built on the Northbank Riverwalk... decades after the original Northbank Riverwalk was constructed). The key is, to get sections of the Riverwalk built as the adjoining land uses are developed. The gaps will be filled in incrementally, over time. Just because all of this doesn't happen overnight... isn't a reason not to sieze upon the opportunity that exists right here, right now.

We're pretty late in the real estate cycle... so, to me... not getting this site developed would be ashame... as it will likely sit vacant another 10+ years. I'm getting older, and I'd sure like to see progress in my lifetime. 

The extension appears to fit in with the master plan for the Riverwalk to connect it over to the Fuller Warren. The main difference seems to be that the new development is funding it, which is a plus.

[remc86007]

Am I missing something, or are they getting more grant money for building a smaller building?:

"In January 2017, the DIA approved a 15-year Recapture Enhanced Value grant worth up to $7.66 million to help subsidize the estimated $62.3 million construction cost.

Ventures returned to the DIA in September to modify its agreement based on new estimated construction costs of $44.8 million.

Under the new approved terms, Ventures will receive a REV grant worth up to $7.88 million over 20 years pending council approval."

[acme54321]

Probably because they are making less money per unit on the development now.  There are a lot of fixed costs that aren't going to go down by shrinking the building (land cost, contractor mobilization, etc)

[Adam White]

That doesn't mean it's not hideous. And the fact that they are happening elsewhere gives credence to copperfiend's complaint about such designs being part of a 'movement'.

'Hideous' is quite subjective. It looks like a pretty typical interpretation of modern architecture to me.

And to me the phrase 'suburban looking apartment buildings' would refer to a site layout which features large setbacks, surface parking with continuous parking drives, separate buildings with limited massing and limited connections to adjacent property. Based on the site design of this property, I wouldn't consider this to be a 'suburban looking apartment building'.

Of course it's all subjective. I wouldn't consider that to be modern architecture though.

My read of his comments re 'suburban looking apartment buildings' was that he was referring to the architecture, not how they were situated on the land. But only he knows...

It's a useful distinction. The layout has a lot more to do with how it interacts with the rest of the space than the aesthetics. There are lots of great modern buildings that are designed for a suburban lifestyle, and shitty buildings that are designed for an urban lifestyle.

My view is that the building is ugly, uninspiring and generic. It might interact with the rest of the space perfectly - but a better-looking building that isn't going to look extremely dated in 20 years could do the job just as well. This building looks disposable (and likely is).

[thelakelander]

The group that gave them hell should pay the difference out of their pockets instead of the taxpayers.....