Convention Center Wars

[vicupstate]

Well with Iguana, at a minimum you know you got an environmental cleanup, expressway demolition and ground level highway reconstruction involved. So you're well over a $100 million in public money before we can talk convention center subsidies.

The last two are pretty much being fast-tracked now. 

[itsfantastic1]

I am disappointed by all the proposals. Where is the out-of-the-box thinking and creativity...like a replica of Noah's ark?

It's in front of the Fuddruckers

[KenFSU]

I am disappointed by all the proposals. Where is the out-of-the-box thinking and creativity...like a replica of Noah's ark?

It's in front of the Fuddruckers

Two of every hamburger on the ark.

[itsfantastic1]

In all seriousness, I think the Jacobs proposal has the best shot of getting through and I plan on letting the Mayor and my council members know as such, however like some have said; we don't need to be paying for yet another private waterfront hotel to compete with the last public funded private waterfront hotel right next door.

I'd like more information on the financing breakdown as well as a few more renderings, but since it doesn't wall off Bay St. and instead has retail and open space, I feel like that is the winner from a development perspective.

[KenFSU]

^Agreed.

Of the four proposals including Iguana's that we've seen, assuming financing isn't wildly different than the others, Jacobs seems like the best choice.

Love how it opens Bay Street up to the river, love that it looks to include more retail and restaurant than others, and with how Florida weather has been trending and with what happened to the Hyatt next door after Irma, I think the elevation probably protects it from the elements over the next 30-40 years better than something at ground-level.

Also can't discount what a big advantage Jacobs has with their proposal by having Hyatt as an ally, rather than a potential roadblock.

What's weird to me is that the court of public opinion, at least from the local media and the casual Jacksonville citizen, seems to favor Iguana, even with the limited information available. I hear a lot of well educated people saying things like "it's Khan's to lose," and "it will be very difficult for anyone to compete with Shad Khan."

Obviously far from scientific, and a smallish sample size thus far, but here's the JBJ's poll.



A new convention center is one of the largest, most strategically important investments the city will make in the coming decades, and I really hope the general public takes the time to educate themselves on the finer details of the financing and potential locations.

[icarus]

I agree that the Jacob's proposal is the most enticing of the three but it still requires filling in a portion of the demolished parking 'dock.'

Even a partial fill-in of land area in the St. John's is going to require approval from:

Army Corp.
DEP
St. Johns River Water Mngmt.

not to mention its tidal property so lets bring in submerged land leases issues, eminent domain, etc.

The Iguana site proposal requires the take down of the hart bridge ramps and environmental clean-up of the site with or without convention center so ..... we are dealing with apples and oranges. 

In my mind's eye, we end up with something akin to Tampa by utilizing old courthouse site ... a nice convention center and attached hotel ... geographically removed from a thriving night life and entertainment area (harbor town).  Not to mention, I would rather see residential development at old courthouse/city hall site to feed retail in core and customers for a Landing 2.0.

[thelakelander]

Umm....Iguana's site fills in a portion of the river too. That tower's footprint is currently water right now. There's also a pier or linear plaza extending out a couple of hundred feet into the river that's not currently there:



All those courthouse concepts are forced to fill in that basin because of being forced to accommodate a massive parking garage on the site. The unsolicited Iguana concept includes a massive garage north of Bay/Gator Bowl Boulevard. I still question if Jax needs this much convention and hotel space....now and in the future. As far as the tilt to Khan and the Jags, it's not surprising the general public would favor them. Name recognition, the city's only major sports franchise, a rockstar billionaire owner. However, the devil is always in the details with these projects. Anyway, I wonder if Iguana would be willing to agree to a similar financing strategy?

[heights unknown]

Jacobs might be the best choice, but outside of Iguana, and not withstanding cost, etc. to all 3, RDD seems to catch my eye and I like what I see. Iguana I like over them all.

[KenFSU]

Well with Iguana, at a minimum you know you got an environmental cleanup, expressway demolition and ground level highway reconstruction involved. So you're well over a $100 million in public money before we can talk convention center subsidies.

And this is assuming the Iguana convention center exists in a vaccuum. The hidden cost comes from paying Cordish hundreds of millions of dollars to build a faux downtown in the surrounding lots to support an isolated convention center. Crazy that we're even considering basing such an important decision on a hypothetical entertainment complex, on polluted land, for which no economic development agreement exists. A convention center on that Shipyards parcel in the absence of a dense, vibrant, thriving, billion dollar development at Lot J would be suicide. Prime Osborne in a less interesting building.

[thelakelander]

Yes, there's a ton of unknowns and hidden costs with Iguana's proposals. If JEA jumps to that location, it can be argued even their move is a double dipping of public money that actually relocates an institutional anchor out of the downtown core to strengthen uses that will compete head to head with existing businesses. One can only hope some real vetting takes place with all of these proposals to best protect the taxpayer from getting fleeced.

[tufsu1]

Jacobs might be the best choice, but outside of Iguana, and not withstanding cost, etc. to all 3, RDD seems to catch my eye and I like what I see. Iguana I like over them all.

the problem is RDD all but pulled a few days later, when they submitted as part of the Iguana proposal - they then revised their old courthouse site proposal to something akin to more downtown residential

[icarus]

Umm....Iguana's site fills in a portion of the river too. That tower's footprint is currently water right now. There's also a pier or linear plaza extending out a couple of hundred feet into the river that's not currently there ...

All those courthouse concepts are forced to fill in that basin because of being forced to accommodate a massive parking garage on the site. The unsolicited Iguana concept includes a massive garage north of Bay/Gator Bowl Boulevard. I still question if Jax needs this much convention and hotel space....now and in the future. As far as the tilt to Khan and the Jags, it's not surprising the general public would favor them. Name recognition, the city's only major sports franchise, a rockstar billionaire owner. However, the devil is always in the details with these projects. Anyway, I wonder if Iguana would be willing to agree to a similar financing strategy?

The pier and the proposed marina are in the general vicinity of the docks and marina that exist currently.   I didn't realize Iguana was filling in a portion of the shoreline as well.

If we were not going to develop the shipyards site, I still think Jacobs is the best of the three.  Convention traffic is ephemeral.  Any entertainment, food venues in the area of the old courthouse would be better served with commercial and residential development.  Grouping like with like by locating the convention center in the stadium district makes sense on that point and with its proximity to the hart bridge and I95 via the hart bridge expresssway.

But, as you said, the devil is in the details and it seems everything is far from clear.

[thelakelander]

Looking at the Jacobs plan, it combines commercial and residential with the convention center and hotel requirements specified by the city. Out of all the proposals, Shipyards included, it clusters the most in a compact setting. Numbers and architecture aside, it's the type of density integration that Downtown needs. New uses complement and strengthen existing uses and businesses as opposed to competing with them.

[howfam]

Looking at the Jacobs plan, it combines commercial and residential with the convention center and hotel requirements specified by the city. Out of all the proposals, Shipyards included, it clusters the most in a compact setting. Numbers and architecture aside, it's the type of density integration that Downtown needs. New uses complement and strengthen existing uses and businesses as opposed to competing with them.

I like both the Jacobs concept and RDD plan. The Jacobs concept handles the site better as it interfaces with the waterfront showing boat slips and palm trees, more appropriate for a waterfront Florida location such as this. RDD's building looks better with its curvilinear roof lines and taller hotel building, more befitting the urban context. But RDD's plan loses on aesthetic appeal trying to force "oak"- looking trees on a waterfront site that's supposed to appeal to tourists and other visitors. Bring the Palm trees please!!!!i

[KenFSU]

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180911/new-convention-center-complex-could-cost-city-up-to-12-billion