A Cheap Solution To Jax's Convention Center Problem?

[jaxnyc79]

My contention about the Shipyards versus Courthouse sites as not really representing a meaningful difference for riverfront convention center placement, should not be confused as me wholeheartedly supporting Iguana.  You want to make the convention center more marketable by putting it on the waterfront and modernizing it, by all means do so.  A more marketable convention center can happen at the Courthouse site and at the Shipyards.

I don't think a big box behemoth of a center at the courthouse site is any sort of linchpin for the CBD.

Separately, if Iguana wants to build an entertainment complex near the stadium, I have no issue with that.  I think it's reasonable to want to convert the massive assemblies in and around the stadium complex into foot traffic before and after shows.  Just as I want all of downtown to give its gatherers a reason to linger, the stadium complex should seek to do the same.

Having said that, my first reaction to Iguana going after JEA as a tenant is that Iguana is being quite lazy and pathetic in making that its target.  I mean, for a development that's supposedly this splashy and next-gen, why can't you recruit a new company to Jacksonville, and no offense, but why not a sexier tenant than the municipal utility.  I mean, SS&C has a growing presence in Jacksonville and they're becoming a powerhouse of a FinTech organization - go after them.  Go after emerging AI or Blockchain Firms. 

[jaxnyc79]

OK, so now you're saying this thread isn't just about Convention Center placement, but about a Convention Center being a critical catalyst for creating the type of "real downtown" that you think we all want, in an area defined as west of Liberty Street?

I'm not saying me. I'm pulling about 40 years of historical research on how we got to where we're at today into the discussion. Quite frankly, if it were me personally, I'd rather see the City Hall Annex building re-purposed instead of torn down.

We just aren't on the same page, and that's fine.  We'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out.  Frankly, I'm trying to recall a vibrant, world-class, alluring inner city where such street-level vitality was spurred along by a convention center.  I just don't think the adjacencies of a big box convention center will turn out the way you think they will.

No, it's sort of like having a bible study with someone who doesn't believe in the bible.


Wow, that was an arrogant statement.  By the way, if you do consider yourself as taking a fact-based, research-driven, and analytical approach to downtown revitalization, probably not consistent to cite your positions as the Bible.  Congratulations on creating the site, but I've always figured this was a forum for inviting a diversity of thought and approach, not to receive thelakelander's bible (gospel) on how Jax revitalization is supposed to work.


I bolded one sentence above for an example. I never said a CC alone would make a vibrant, world-class anything. I spoke about previous investments and how clustering complimenting uses within a compact pedestrian scale synergy is what works and builds vibrant places. You would treat the placement of a CC the same way you'd treat the design of the Landing, placement of a museum or enhancement of a park. The sum of all parts is what creates the lively interactive space.

And by the way, I can agree to disagree with you without putting your point of view down, or making a statement like, "I disagree because I'm trying to be a good steward of public investment dollars."  No one has the lock on how to make Downtown Jax some vital and bustling version of itself.  This is all conjecture.

There's no conjecture of what type of development strategies work and don't work. We have a globe worth of good and bad examples to pull from.

[thelakelander]

My contention about the Shipyards versus Courthouse sites as not really representing a meaningful difference for riverfront convention center placement, should not be confused as me wholeheartedly supporting Iguana.

I don't believe I ever stated this.

You want to make the convention center more marketable by putting it on the waterfront and modernizing it, by all means do so.  A more marketable convention center can happen at the Courthouse site and at the Shipyards.

A more marketable downtown is more than a CC. It's more residents, restaurants, bars, businesses, hotels, a better Landing, a better Elbow, etc. Where we place public investments can either help, not help as much or not help at all in the advancement of the end goal.

I don't think a big box behemoth of a center at the courthouse site is any sort of linchpin for the CBD.

Me neither. I believe clustering complimenting uses within a compact setting is the linchpin as proven with every vibrant urban district in the country.

Separately, if Iguana wants to build an entertainment complex near the stadium, I have no issue with that.  I think it's reasonable to want to convert the massive assemblies in and around the stadium complex into foot traffic before and after shows.  Just as I want all of downtown to give its gatherers a reason to linger, the stadium complex should seek to do the same.

I don't have a problem with Iguana investing around the stadium. I'd love those parking lots to be developed. As a taxpayer, historian and professional planner, I do have trouble with a plan that calls for tax money to develop things that compete directly with what we've (Jax's taxpayers) have been sold and continue to subsidize.

Having said that, my first reaction to Iguana going after JEA as a tenant is that Iguana is being quite lazy and pathetic in making that its target.  I mean, for a development that's supposedly this splashy and next-gen, why can't you recruit a new company to Jacksonville, and no offense, but why not a sexier tenant than the municipal utility.  I mean, SS&C has a growing presence in Jacksonville and they're becoming a powerhouse of a FinTech organization - go after them.  Go after emerging AI or Blockchain Firms.

This is the problem I have with what has been recently materializing. Iguana seems to be only concerned about their own bottom line. Those pretty city slicker renderings are nothing more than fluff to sell a bunch of urban development starved country farmers on funneling public resources that way. None of these renderings match the bland box that JEA put up the other day and under no circumstances can any claim that JEA next to the stadium does more than downtown than them staying right where they're at, one block from Hemming. Moving 800 to 1,000 existing employees from the heart of DT to the stadium only helps Iguana. How does that improve downtown or beneficial to the taxpayers who will be asked to subsidize such a move?

[thelakelander]

OK, so now you're saying this thread isn't just about Convention Center placement, but about a Convention Center being a critical catalyst for creating the type of "real downtown" that you think we all want, in an area defined as west of Liberty Street?

I'm not saying me. I'm pulling about 40 years of historical research on how we got to where we're at today into the discussion. Quite frankly, if it were me personally, I'd rather see the City Hall Annex building re-purposed instead of torn down.

We just aren't on the same page, and that's fine.  We'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out.  Frankly, I'm trying to recall a vibrant, world-class, alluring inner city where such street-level vitality was spurred along by a convention center.  I just don't think the adjacencies of a big box convention center will turn out the way you think they will.

No, it's sort of like having a bible study with someone who doesn't believe in the bible.


Wow, that was an arrogant statement.  By the way, if you do consider yourself as taking a fact-based, research-driven, and analytical approach to downtown revitalization, probably not consistent to cite your positions as the Bible.  Congratulations on creating the site, but I've always figured this was a forum for inviting a diversity of thought and approach, not to receive thelakelander's bible (gospel) on how Jax revitalization is supposed to work.

It's only arrogant when you take it that way, which you're constantly putting in words and interpretations I've never stated.

If doesn't matter who believes or doesn't believe whatever position in that statement. The point is we're not in agreement at the foundational level. Because of that, we're simply not going to see eye to eye on the issue.

[KenFSU]

Moving 800 to 1,000 existing employees from the heart of DT to the stadium only helps Iguana. How does that improve downtown or beneficial to the taxpayers who will be asked to subsidize such a move?

There seems to be acknowledgement from some at JEA that a move to Lot J wouldn't help downtown revitalization at all.

From the JBJ:

[One JEA] board member pushed back against the downtown-centric approach.

"I would hope we're looking out for JEA first," board member Husein Cumber said, adding that the ability to contribute to downtown's revitalization would be great, but that it shouldn't be the deciding factor. He said employees might prefer being part of an exciting mixed-use project, such as Lot J, which sits just outside of the urban core."

[thelakelander]

Interesting indeed. Downtown and the Atkins alternative are also mixed-use. But that quote does make it seem like some others do understand the economic loss of moving +800 workers out of the downtown core and negativity associated with that.

[ProjectMaximus]

No one has the lock on how to make Downtown Jax some vital and bustling version of itself.  This is all conjecture.

I actually believe Lake has it on lock. I don't agree with everything he says, but I would put him in charge with complete confidence and I doubt I'm alone.

Wow, that was an arrogant statement.  By the way, if you do consider yourself as taking a fact-based, research-driven, and analytical approach to downtown revitalization, probably not consistent to cite your positions as the Bible.  Congratulations on creating the site, but I've always figured this was a forum for inviting a diversity of thought and approach, not to receive thelakelander's bible (gospel) on how Jax revitalization is supposed to work.

Lake might be an arrogant SOB, but trust me his comments have been far tamer than what he could say or does say in other situations lol. And it's not HIS bible, he's prescribing to a set of principles that did not originate from him whatsoever (not that he was even necessarily comparing his position to Biblical truths in any case)

My contention about the Shipyards versus Courthouse sites as not really representing a meaningful difference for riverfront convention center placement, should not be confused as me wholeheartedly supporting Iguana.  You want to make the convention center more marketable by putting it on the waterfront and modernizing it, by all means do so. 

Having said all of that, I agree with you on a number of things. I'm pretty torn about the overall idea myself. I agree with Lake that clustering is the key to lighting the kindling and a CC plus complementing uses really would serve downtown much better today by being literally adjacent to the areas of focus/priority on the northbank. Throwing these things (particularly with tax incentives or subsidy of some kind) out in the stadium district quashes any type of momentum that could be built. You could say that in 20 years, northbank vibrancy will be where it would have been in 10 years with a closer site. But at the same time, if we were chasing the ideal, 40 years from now a bustling and dense Jax urban core would probably be better served by a CC out at the Stadium District. Ugh...so difficult amirite? I'm even of the opinion that the CC shouldn't be on the waterfront at all. I would also lean towards not putting public money towards the convention business/industry. I don't see it being favorable ROI right now. But I'm no expert on conventions so I'll leave it to y'all.

Oh and I very much agree Khan should be (and hopefully is) pursuing "splashier," non-local companies.

There seems to be acknowledgement from some at JEA that a move to Lot J wouldn't help downtown revitalization at all.

Where's Josh? Josh, how do you feel about this?

[jaxnyc79]

No one has the lock on how to make Downtown Jax some vital and bustling version of itself.  This is all conjecture.

I actually believe Lake has it on lock. I don't agree with everything he says, but I would put him in charge with complete confidence and I doubt I'm alone.

Wow, that was an arrogant statement.  By the way, if you do consider yourself as taking a fact-based, research-driven, and analytical approach to downtown revitalization, probably not consistent to cite your positions as the Bible.  Congratulations on creating the site, but I've always figured this was a forum for inviting a diversity of thought and approach, not to receive thelakelander's bible (gospel) on how Jax revitalization is supposed to work.

Lake might be an arrogant SOB, but trust me his comments have been far tamer than what he could say or does say in other situations lol. And it's not HIS bible, he's prescribing to a set of principles that did not originate from him whatsoever (not that he was even necessarily comparing his position to Biblical truths in any case)

My contention about the Shipyards versus Courthouse sites as not really representing a meaningful difference for riverfront convention center placement, should not be confused as me wholeheartedly supporting Iguana.  You want to make the convention center more marketable by putting it on the waterfront and modernizing it, by all means do so. 

Having said all of that, I agree with you on a number of things. I'm pretty torn about the overall idea myself. I agree with Lake that clustering is the key to lighting the kindling and a CC plus complementing uses really would serve downtown much better today by being literally adjacent to the areas of focus/priority on the northbank. Throwing these things (particularly with tax incentives or subsidy of some kind) out in the stadium district quashes any type of momentum that could be built. You could say that in 20 years, northbank vibrancy will be where it would have been in 10 years with a closer site. But at the same time, if we were chasing the ideal, 40 years from now a bustling and dense Jax urban core would probably be better served by a CC out at the Stadium District. Ugh...so difficult amirite? I'm even of the opinion that the CC shouldn't be on the waterfront at all. I would also lean towards not putting public money towards the convention business/industry. I don't see it being favorable ROI right now. But I'm no expert on conventions so I'll leave it to y'all.

Oh and I very much agree Khan should be (and hopefully is) pursuing "splashier," non-local companies.

There seems to be acknowledgement from some at JEA that a move to Lot J wouldn't help downtown revitalization at all.

Where's Josh? Josh, how do you feel about this?

Glad you believe Lake has it on lock and is all-knowing, and his position on every detail of downtown development is Bible, but I don't.  And  not sure what you mean by put him in charge, but even if Lake were to run for mayor or get appointed as Downtown Czar, he should still be challenged by a Board or Committee, as any good governance framework should require.  So sorry, no unilateral dictators going around asserting their positions as "Bible" in American democracy, be it on downtown or anything else.  Lake has a lot of great insights, but resorting to the ridiculous Bible comment on a relatively tame position that the Courthouse site isn't all that important versus the Shipyards one, was unnecessarily pompous.  As I've mentioned in the past, I'm not convinced now is the time to focus on a Convention Center.  Make downtown great again and appealing to both locals and outsiders for a multitude of reasons, and then monetize its revival with a Convention Center.

[thelakelander]

Jaxnyc79, I'm offended. I don't want to be your Jim Jones. You can be the apostle, reverend and believer in the bible of Jacksonville revitalization past. I rather be the demon who talks you into getting a beer at the local craft brewery instead of heading to a chain restaurant after your bible study .

I'm here to challenge and question the bad decisions we've made locally over the last 50 years with sound trued and tried principles that have worked globally over the years. I don't care if it upsets the apple cart. Someone has to do it if change is to be made. In the end, you don't have to believe or agree with every position I take. I'm not asking anyone to do that.

However, I do hope that more open minds read the conversation and that things said get them to think in more depth about the pros and cons of revitalization decisions we make locally. If that happens, Jax will end up being a much better place!

[jaxnyc79]

Jaxnyc79, I'm offended. I don't want to be your Jim Jones. You can be the apostle, reverend and believer in the bible of Jacksonville revitalization past. I rather be the demon who talks you into getting a beer at the local craft brewery instead of heading to a chain restaurant after your bible study .

I'm here to challenge and question the bad decisions we've made locally over the last 50 years with sound trued and tried principles that have worked globally over the years. I don't care if it upsets the apple cart. Someone has to do it if change is to be made. In the end, you don't have to believe or agree with every position I take. I'm not asking anyone to do that.

However, I do hope that more open minds read the conversation and that things said get them to think in more depth about the pros and cons of revitalization decisions we make locally. If that happens, Jax will end up being a much better place!

You brought "bible" into this thread, certainly not me.  I've been a staunch supporter of mixed and clustered uses all throughout downtown, for walkability, and for streetscape activation, ever since I started following the site.  I believe in those principles not just in "old downtown" or "stadium complex downtown," but frankly all throughout the urban core of Duval County, and I think a new zoning code should reflect prioritization or at least equality for pedestrians versus motorists.  So sounds like there are shared objectives here.

[thelakelander]

Throwing these things (particularly with tax incentives or subsidy of some kind) out in the stadium district quashes any type of momentum that could be built. You could say that in 20 years, northbank vibrancy will be where it would have been in 10 years with a closer site. But at the same time, if we were chasing the ideal, 40 years from now a bustling and dense Jax urban core would probably be better served by a CC out at the Stadium District. Ugh...so difficult amirite? I'm even of the opinion that the CC shouldn't be on the waterfront at all. I would also lean towards not putting public money towards the convention business/industry. I don't see it being favorable ROI right now. But I'm no expert on conventions so I'll leave it to y'all.

Oh and I very much agree Khan should be (and hopefully is) pursuing "splashier," non-local companies.

Here's my problem with this. Our structure of government isn't set up to pursue a 40 year dream. Four years from now, it's more likely we'll have another mayor with another set of priorities that moves away from everything Curry's administration is pushing for. Only four years ago, we had Brown and if he would have been reelected, we'd likely given money to Sleiman and the Landing's redevelopment would already be underway.

Also, if we look back into history, this same sentiment is what got us to subsidize the Landing in the 1980s, tricking Rouse on sweet nothings about what DT Jax would be like in the future. What we sold Rouse did not happen. Throw in the reality of economic recession cycles with our changes in government priorities, it's likely 90% of what's being sold in those pretty little renderings never happen.

With that said, we can stop giving Khan these guys the benefit of the doubt in pursuing "splashier" non-local companies. That's a pipe dream. No matter what they say and show in pictures, the market is the market and people like him didn't become billionaires by going against it. Logically, this means they'll pursue whatever makes their numbers and ROI work best.....even if it means poaching existing businesses and future development opportunities from the core CBD. At this point, we don't even need to guess. The proof is in the pudding with Vystar, JEA, Landing/Lot J and the convention center RFP fiasco. So we as a community should be prepared to face and understand what the pros and cons of subsidizing each development concept can possibly bring.  I know it's uncomfortable because this is our beloved Jags we're talking about but we're still living in the reality of Jax's market is only so big and can support so much.

[thelakelander]

Jaxnyc79, I'm offended. I don't want to be your Jim Jones. You can be the apostle, reverend and believer in the bible of Jacksonville revitalization past. I rather be the demon who talks you into getting a beer at the local craft brewery instead of heading to a chain restaurant after your bible study .

I'm here to challenge and question the bad decisions we've made locally over the last 50 years with sound trued and tried principles that have worked globally over the years. I don't care if it upsets the apple cart. Someone has to do it if change is to be made. In the end, you don't have to believe or agree with every position I take. I'm not asking anyone to do that.

However, I do hope that more open minds read the conversation and that things said get them to think in more depth about the pros and cons of revitalization decisions we make locally. If that happens, Jax will end up being a much better place!

You brought "bible" into this thread, certainly not me.

I did, but you selected to take it like a southern baptist and not a doubting Thomas.  The point was about not being able to come to an agreeable position because our foundational values are totally different. That's all on you.  Anyway, I didn't mean to offend you.  This is an internet discussion board. Don't lose any sleep over it!

[jaxnyc79]

Jaxnyc79, I'm offended. I don't want to be your Jim Jones. You can be the apostle, reverend and believer in the bible of Jacksonville revitalization past. I rather be the demon who talks you into getting a beer at the local craft brewery instead of heading to a chain restaurant after your bible study .

I'm here to challenge and question the bad decisions we've made locally over the last 50 years with sound trued and tried principles that have worked globally over the years. I don't care if it upsets the apple cart. Someone has to do it if change is to be made. In the end, you don't have to believe or agree with every position I take. I'm not asking anyone to do that.

However, I do hope that more open minds read the conversation and that things said get them to think in more depth about the pros and cons of revitalization decisions we make locally. If that happens, Jax will end up being a much better place!

You brought "bible" into this thread, certainly not me.

I did, but you selected to take it like a southern baptist and not a doubting Thomas.  The point was about not being able to come to an agreeable position because our foundational values are totally different. That's all on you.  Anyway, I didn't mean to offend you.  This is an internet discussion board. Don't lose any sleep over it!

I assure you I'm the furthest thing from southern baptist (hence my point that a fact-based, research-driven discussion on downtown had no relevance to bible, and wasn't sure why you were bringing that up).  I did get your reference based on the bible's literary symbolism as absolute truth and orthodoxy, that your position in the conversation transcended opposing viewpoints.  I called out that reference as pompous. 

I certainly hope that recruiting new companies to downtown (including to the Stadium Complex) isn't a pipe dream.  Didn't we just give incentives to an emerging company like Shared Labs to grow downtown?  My point was that companies all over the country are building and expanding presences in downtowns, even if they aren't mega-headquarters, because the young and innovative talent they're targeting like working in mixed-use, urban environments.  A new, truly urban campus anywhere downtown (not just in core CBD) could be a draw for some new corporate names to the area, in my opinion.  If Khan happens to build a thriving, urban-style corporate campus at the Stadium Complex with new corporate names, and some of those workers end up in residential projects like the new building proposed next to the Ambassador, then I'm all for it.

[thelakelander]

When I say "it's a pipe dream"...I'm saying it's wishful thinking to hope these guys are pursuing business opportunities that others in the city aren't already doing. They are fishing from the same pond. It's more likely they land JEA instead of Amazon. The renderings are pretty but there's nothing special that sets it apart from what's going on in peer communities across the country.

[jaxnyc79]

Well I agree that targeting JEA lacks initiative.  I'm also tired of the Iguana renderings, and starting to think Iguana is merely a graphic design firm, and little else.  The only thing I thought was somewhat interesting was the idea of converting a vast parking lot into an urban neighborhood with density and grid-patterned streets.  I know it's been done before, but I'd still like to see that, frankly.