A Cheap Solution To Jax's Convention Center Problem?

[thelakelander]

#InShadWeTrust, Ennis. I was going to write much, much more but you've heard it before so I'll merely repeat what you've also heard multiple times from me:

#InShadWeTrust.

I trust that Shad will develop his own node....it just appears it will be at the expense of the Northbank core. However, that's not his problem. It's COJ's to find a way to make sure everything is complimentary. Hopefully, it won't include publicy financing JEA to relocate 800 employees out of the walkable heart of the city.

[Non-RedNeck Westsider]

I'm just going to state the obvious - Lake and JaxNYC both go to a lot of conventions, but I'm pretty confident they're not going to the same conventions.  Tomato / Tomatoe

I don't go to many, and what I usually go to are trade shows.  Sometimes I hang out in the city for an extra day or two, often times I turn and burn.  My personal deciding factor on whether or not to go is: a.)  what equipment am I looking to upgrade, b.) who's going to be there, c.) who's paying for it.  Where it's located only comes into play due to the cost to get there.   I go to Atlanta a lot!

[thelakelander]

Look at it this way. I'm speaking from the perspective of maximizing the impact of local tax money geared towards downtown revitalization.

We already have a convention center that brings in trade shows and other events into downtown. It's a mile west of the urban core. The traffic it generates doesn't do much for the downtown core itself, in terms of generating spin-off business activity and such. It also isn't busy enough to support the growth of restaurants, hotels, retail, etc. nearby. This was a primary reason the idea of relocation, particularly to the courthouse site, materialized over a decade ago. It killed multiple economic birds with one relocation stone:

1. Existing isolated foot traffic shifts to urban core, thus assisting in increased visibility for existing struggling downtown support uses.

2. Existing complimenting supporting publicly financed projects (Hyatt, Landing, Elbow, riverwalk, etc.) are aided by a strategically placed CC (thus reducing the need to invest in more and solidifying the ROI on previously invested projects).

Even if we put the same small box (instead of building a larger space) closer to existing complimenting publicly financed projects, there's economic spin-off as the result of clustering poor performing isolated complimenting uses within a compact setting. This is why everything from fast food restaurants and auto dealerships to strip clubs and retailers in strip malls tend to cluster together. There's strength in numbers.

When you ignore the connectivity part and go a mile east or on the other side of the river, you killed the opportunity to also help address items 1 and 2. In essence, you then have to subsidize more of #2, which directly competes and possibly kills your previous #2 investments. No matter how we justify the reasoning behind a decision to ignore addressing these items, the ultimate loser in this scenario still ends up being the taxpayer.

[jaxnyc79]

Look at it this way. I'm speaking from the perspective of maximizing the impact of local tax money geared towards downtown revitalization.

We already have a convention center that brings in trade shows and other events into downtown. It's a mile west of the urban core. The traffic it generates doesn't do much for the downtown core itself, in terms of generating spin-off business activity and such. It also isn't busy enough to support the growth of restaurants, hotels, retail, etc. nearby. This was a primary reason the idea of relocation, particularly to the courthouse site, materialized over a decade ago. It killed multiple economic birds with one relocation stone:

1. Existing isolated foot traffic shifts to urban core, thus assisting in increased visibility for existing struggling downtown support uses.

2. Existing complimenting supporting publicly financed projects (Hyatt, Landing, Elbow, riverwalk, etc.) are aided by a strategically placed CC (thus reducing the need to invest in more and solidifying the ROI on previously invested projects).

Even if we put the same small box (instead of building a larger space) closer to existing complimenting publicly financed projects, there's economic spin-off as the result of clustering poor performing isolated complimenting uses within a compact setting. This is why everything from fast food restaurants and auto dealerships to strip clubs and retailers in strip malls tend to cluster together. There's strength in numbers.

When you ignore the connectivity part and go a mile east or on the other side of the river, you killed the opportunity to also help address items 1 and 2. In essence, you then have to subsidize more of #2, which directly competes and possibly kills your previous #2 investments. No matter how we justify the reasoning behind a decision to ignore addressing these items, the ultimate loser in this scenario still ends up being the taxpayer.

In my opinion, you're staking too much of downtown's fortunes on a placement difference that to me isn't all that meaningful for most conventioneers. 

I'm not sure whether you're personally invested in the Elbow, but whether an entertainment hub is in that area, or in the Doro District, or even in LaVilla (wasn't there a recent piece on this site comparing Beale Street in Memphis with possibilities for LaVilla), I don't think it will matter much to conventioneers...

The city just needs to have some sort of entertainment hub within a reasonable distance of the convention center complex, and Doro versus Elbow are just not that far apart to matter, ultimately.  I mean, doesn't the Elbow start at Liberty and Bay?  I mean, why are we even arguing, that is simply not that far from the Shipyards Complex plans.  Liberty Street to Georgia Street is 0.6 miles along Bay.  Not a big deal.

If you want old buildings rehabbed in the core, well it appears some of that is happening already, and if you want more of it happening, well keep infusing downtown with residential development, continue creating reasons for the region's residents (not just outsiders through conventions) to linger downtown like Boyer's activation initiative, opening up more businesses to the streetscape, turning Hemming Park into a Munich-Style Outdoor Beer Garden Thursdays-Sundays (sorry to slip that in, just a personal fantasy of mine), and re-branding downtown Jax as the place to be for its most energized and innovative denizens, and I believe the culmination of all these efforts will drive the vitality among older buildings in the core that you seek.

[itsfantastic1]

Look at it this way. I'm speaking from the perspective of maximizing the impact of local tax money geared towards downtown revitalization.

We already have a convention center that brings in trade shows and other events into downtown. It's a mile west of the urban core. The traffic it generates doesn't do much for the downtown core itself, in terms of generating spin-off business activity and such. It also isn't busy enough to support the growth of restaurants, hotels, retail, etc. nearby. This was a primary reason the idea of relocation, particularly to the courthouse site, materialized over a decade ago. It killed multiple economic birds with one relocation stone:

1. Existing isolated foot traffic shifts to urban core, thus assisting in increased visibility for existing struggling downtown support uses.

2. Existing complimenting supporting publicly financed projects (Hyatt, Landing, Elbow, riverwalk, etc.) are aided by a strategically placed CC (thus reducing the need to invest in more and solidifying the ROI on previously invested projects).

Even if we put the same small box (instead of building a larger space) closer to existing complimenting publicly financed projects, there's economic spin-off as the result of clustering poor performing isolated complimenting uses within a compact setting. This is why everything from fast food restaurants and auto dealerships to strip clubs and retailers in strip malls tend to cluster together. There's strength in numbers.

When you ignore the connectivity part and go a mile east or on the other side of the river, you killed the opportunity to also help address items 1 and 2. In essence, you then have to subsidize more of #2, which directly competes and possibly kills your previous #2 investments. No matter how we justify the reasoning behind a decision to ignore addressing these items, the ultimate loser in this scenario still ends up being the taxpayer.

Also Khan's plan is very similar to the La Villa vision of the Prime Osbourne. "Nothing exists but if you give me a convention center on developable land isolated from all existing industries that typically accompany a convention center (hotels, resturants, nightlife), I'll build all that for you." I trust Shad too, but his renderings of Daily's Place he originally presented and what we got, should make anyone question his current design plans whose purpose are just to dazzle the masses. And while we are already probably going to have city money go to a convention center in any new location, Shad will most likely want MORE city money to help his vision surrounding it. Why pay even more when we already have existing facilities in the Courthouse site? They city would be paying to compete with itself.

[KenFSU]

#InShadWeTrust, Ennis. I was going to write much, much more but you've heard it before so I'll merely repeat what you've also heard multiple times from me:

#InShadWeTrust.

I trust that Shad will develop his own node....it just appears it will be at the expense of the Northbank core. However, that's not his problem. It's COJ's to find a way to make sure everything is complimentary. Hopefully, it won't include publicy financing JEA to relocate 800 employees out of the walkable heart of the city.

Ran into a friend from JEA this morning. Can confirm that, immediately after announcing Lot J, the Jaguars reached out to JEA to sell them on Lot J, rather than JEA reaching out to the Jaguars. These conversations led JEA to expand its search beyond the site proposed in the land swap. General vibe at JEA is that everyone hates the idea of moving into shared space at Bank of America or One Enterprise, most people like what little they know about the four-block plan, most people are apathetic/fine about the land swap, and that the Lot J plan is the most polarizing, with some people absolutely loving it, and some people hating it. It also sounds like, even if Lot J were to happen, JEA might need to maintain a small customer-facing presence in the CBD.

It's a good point about how, if they did choose Lot J, we really would be subsidizing the move of 800 employees out of the CBD, wiping out all those gains from Vystar (which we're likely subsidizing in part as well through parking rebates).

[thelakelander]

In my opinion, you're staking too much of downtown's fortunes on a placement difference that to me isn't all that meaningful for most conventioneers.

Bingo! Now we're getting somewhere. I'm exactly talking about strategic investments of publicly backed projects to maximize downtown revitalization. Not what an average conventioneer is seeking (the average conventioneer could care less about DT Jax). We already know what the average conventioneer spends money on. Jax needs to decide where it would like that money spent and acknowledge the pros and cons of that decision. If it's at the sports district, then it's time to backtrack and reconfigure the talk that's been sold to the public for the last 40 years.

I'm not sure whether you're personally invested in the Elbow, but whether an entertainment hub is in that area, or in the Doro District, or even in LaVilla (wasn't there a recent piece on this site comparing Beale Street in Memphis with possibilities for LaVilla), I don't think it will matter much to conventioneers...

The LaVilla piece used Beale Street as an example to show you can revitalize around an area's unique history, even if it has been largely destroyed by urban renewal. It wasn't intended to say LaVilla should be an entertainment district. Authentic entertainment districts tend to evolve on their own. The Elbow is sort of doing that, a decade after COJ spent money doing the Bay Street Town Center project in anticipation for Super Bowl XXXIX. Clustering complimenting development simply makes things work at a market rate level.

The city just needs to have some sort of entertainment hub within a reasonable distance of the convention center complex, and Doro versus Elbow are just not that far apart to matter, ultimately.  I mean, doesn't the Elbow start at Liberty and Bay?  I mean, why are we even arguing, that is simply not that far from the Shipyards Complex plans.  Liberty Street to Georgia Street is 0.6 miles along Bay.  Not a big deal.

If ultimately means 30-50 years from now. Things can happen much faster when clustered within a compact setting.

If you want old buildings rehabbed in the core, well it appears some of that is happening already, and if you want more of it happening, well keep infusing downtown with residential development, continue creating reasons for the region's residents (not just outsiders through conventions) to linger downtown like Boyer's activation initiative, opening up more businesses to the streetscape, turning Hemming Park into a Munich-Style Outdoor Beer Garden Thursdays-Sundays (sorry to slip that in, just a personal fantasy of mine), and re-branding downtown Jax as the place to be for its most energized and innovative denizens, and I believe the culmination of all these efforts will drive the vitality among older buildings in the core that you seek.

If Jax wants its downtown core revitalized, rehabbing it (which includes old vacant buildings) with mixed uses is essential. So reinforce want is finally starting to jumpstart things into the next level.  Also, work with your market. Hotels, restaurants, bars and lofts projects are finally materializing within many of these old buildings. These are the support uses needed to assist in making an area around a convention center attractive. So there is a strong argument in strategically placing a center within walking distance of this activity, as opposed to subsidizing it elsewhere along with supportive development that directly competes with what's currently starting to take place. I know it keeps getting ignored or downplayed since Khan blew in to town, but this was the whole point of the consideration of moving the thing from the Prime Osborn in the first place.

[KenFSU]

I agree with everything you're saying Ennis, but sadly, I think the biggest x-factor that's going to play into all of this, which is the last factor that should play into it, is fear of losing the Jags.

Most of the decision makers probably agree deep down that the best thing to do for downtown revitalization is to build in the urban core, but the question is, how high is the mayor and city council willing to jump if Lamping starts to (or continues to) insinuate that a convention center co-developed between the city and Jags, and operated by Bold Events, is key to the franchise's long-term stability in Jacksonville.

The sheer timing of the Jags' unsolicited convention center proposal almost comes across as a threat.

Throw in the fact that the Jags lease runs up in 2029, Khan may own Wembley by the end of the year, and there's a fighting chance that the city's on an endorphin high from a Jags SuperBowl appearance by the time a convention center decision needs to be made, I'm not entirely sure I trust in a rational decision being made.

Unless the rational decision is keeping the Jags happy is more important than doing what's best for downtown.

Who knows.

It's going to be a fascinating thing to watch play out.

[Adam White]

What are the boundaries of the so-called "urban core"? Just curious. I see the term thrown around a lot and have never been sure what it entails.

[thelakelander]

If they want to go to London, they will regardless of the peanuts being tossed in Jax around TIAA Bank Field. Nothing we can do here can financially compete with London. But yes, in this town, I can see the typical NFL franchise card being pulled and it being successful in shifting things to that area at the expense of other areas and last public investments.  Sadly, I do believe that if things play out that way, downtown will never be as successful as most (including jaxnyc79) dream about. But it is, what it is.

With that said, I believe time and the economy will have more impact. Much of the stuff being tossed around these days are conceptual pipe dreams that are years away from any type of reality.  Many of us here in this forum saw this play out over a decade ago. There's even an article dedicated to the pipe dream projects that died with the economy and mayoral term limits:

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-results-of-the-boom-dead-projects

If I had to guess, whatever isn't underway (like under construction) within the next year or two probably won't materialize. All of these convention center proposals and the Shipyards fall into that category. Also I'm not sold that JEA will end up at Lot J. Such a move would be a public and political firestorm in conservative Jax if it involves public incentives to make it feasible (and I can't imagine the Jag's doing Lot J without public money).

[thelakelander]

What are the boundaries of the so-called "urban core"? Just curious. I see the term thrown around a lot and have never been sure what it entails.

I'd describe the actual urban core as the pre-consolidated city. That would include everything from Riverside/Avondale and San Marco up to Panama Park and west to Lackawanna and Commonwealth. This is an area that was largely developed with a gridded street network and designed to be multimodal and mixed use prior to WWII. From a connectivity standpoint, this is the core area of where high frequency transit should be set up and heavily coordinated with supportive land use to encourage TOD in various neighborhoods around transit stops.

This is a different definition from the CBD, Central Business District or downtown.  The historical, walkable setting that is downtown and that most non-planner types consider it to be is the Northbank roughly bounded by the river, Liberty Street/Hogans Creek, State/Union and probably Broad Street. However, as DT declined for numbers sake, the boundaries have been expanded to State/Union (north), I-95 (west/south) and the river/JEA site (east).

Nevertheless, regardless of how we technically define it, the human scaled portion is pretty much what it has always been (although significantly hurt by countless demolitions since Haydon Burns' DT revitalization effort back in the 1950s). If the desire to change the area's image into one featuring buildings filled with mixed uses, density, etc. within a walkable setting, we won't be able to ignore the 186-year-old elephant in the room.

[jaxnyc79]

OK, so now you're saying this thread isn't just about Convention Center placement, but about a Convention Center being a critical catalyst for creating the type of "real downtown" that you think we all want, in an area defined as west of Liberty Street?

We just aren't on the same page, and that's fine.  We'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out.  Frankly, I'm trying to recall a vibrant, world-class, alluring inner city where such street-level vitality was spurred along by a convention center.  I just don't think the adjacencies of a big box convention center will turn out the way you think they will. 

And by the way, I can agree to disagree with you without putting your point of view down, or making a statement like, "I disagree because I'm trying to be a good steward of public investment dollars."  No one has the lock on how to make Downtown Jax some vital and bustling version of itself.  This is all conjecture.

[KenFSU]

Dave Cawton of the Daily Record on Khan's vision for the convention center & Lot J.

Emphasis is mine, but goes to show how Khan's vision for "improving downtown" doesn't at all align with what we're talking about in this thread.

Khan wants to "Disney-fy" the stadium complex: stay, dine, go to a concert and watch a game without having to go anywhere else. Not saying that's bad or not feasable, but that's his vision.

Also, just an observation, but kind of odd how antiseptic the reporting is here in Jacksonville. All three major print outlets - TU, Daily Record, Business Journal - reported on Khan's release of the Shipyards convention center renders, and nobody is talking about potential political gamesmanship, or the failure of any of the other renders to materialize over the years, or the appropriateness of submitting an unsolicited bid 24-hours after the other RFP closed, or whether one location makes more sense than the other.

Just basic, vanilla coverage.

Ditto when JEA pivoted and broadened their search for a new headquarters.

Atkins presented a really compelling plan in conjunction with JEA, which to me is a huge story, but every headline was trumpeting the possibility of JEA moving to Lot J.

It's just kind of odd how little hard-hitting commentary you see in the local media about these things, particularly when they involve Shad Khan/The Jags.

[thelakelander]

OK, so now you're saying this thread isn't just about Convention Center placement, but about a Convention Center being a critical catalyst for creating the type of "real downtown" that you think we all want, in an area defined as west of Liberty Street?

I'm not saying me. I'm pulling about 40 years of historical research on how we got to where we're at today into the discussion. Quite frankly, if it were me personally, I'd rather see the City Hall Annex building re-purposed instead of torn down.

We just aren't on the same page, and that's fine.  We'll just have to wait and see how this all plays out.  Frankly, I'm trying to recall a vibrant, world-class, alluring inner city where such street-level vitality was spurred along by a convention center.  I just don't think the adjacencies of a big box convention center will turn out the way you think they will.

No, it's sort of like having a bible study with someone who doesn't believe in the bible.

I bolded one sentence above for an example. I never said a CC alone would make a vibrant, world-class anything. I spoke about previous investments and how clustering complimenting uses within a compact pedestrian scale synergy is what works and builds vibrant places. You would treat the placement of a CC the same way you'd treat the design of the Landing, placement of a museum or enhancement of a park. The sum of all parts is what creates the lively interactive space.

And by the way, I can agree to disagree with you without putting your point of view down, or making a statement like, "I disagree because I'm trying to be a good steward of public investment dollars."  No one has the lock on how to make Downtown Jax some vital and bustling version of itself.  This is all conjecture.

There's no conjecture of what type of development strategies work and don't work. We have a globe worth of good and bad examples to pull from.

[thelakelander]

Dave Cawton of the Daily Record on Khan's vision for the convention center & Lot J.

Emphasis is mine, but goes to show how Khan's vision for "improving downtown" doesn't at all align with what we're talking about in this thread.

It's pretty clear that Khan and the Jag's vision is about themselves and not anything else. It's just presented as Jax will benefit if they are successful.