Greyhound bus station sold for $2.78 million

[Lostwave]

Yea....Jacksonville tried that. The Plaza was developed by Cameron Kuhn. You'll find renderings of RiverWatch at CityCenter on this site - it was his Jacksonville version. That died when he went Kuhn when the proverbial ATM stopped spitting free money out.

The challenge with concrete highrises is the cost of construction versus what you can sell things for. Take Apartments as an example - they challenge has been building a high-rise apartment building without incentives and being able to pay for it in rent. Downtown struggles to generate the rent that would be needed to cover it. One of the differences in Real Estate prices here versus many cities is in Jacksonville, the building is usually worth more than the dirt it's on. In many other cities, it's the opposite. The difference is that you can charge enough rent to make it work based purely on location. Here, it's a challenge.

Personally, I'd rather mid-rise construction and street level vibrancy than another EverBank Center that's dead at night. I know they built that with a "mall" inside. That doesn't count.

The problem is the land just isn't valuable enough for highrises as you said above.  There is too much vacant land and a developer could make the same money from a much smaller investment building a 5 floor apartment/condo building, than building a 25 floor apartment/condo.  They could build 225 units in several small buildings for much cheaper than in one highrise, and because our land is so plentiful, thats exactly what they do.  In cities like Seattle, they would never build a 5 floor apartment downtown because they just paid 45 million for a half block.  It would never pencil out, so they are forced to build a tower. 

[thelakelander]

The easy answer here is embrace as many of those stick built projects on all of these vacant sites as possible. As long as they're designed right, they still add density that stimulates life in the core. At the same time, strategically use incentives to adaptively reuse existing historic building stock. Sure, it won't be new tower cranes like Orlando or Charlotte but they'll also never have the historic urban building stock we have. Then, even with the market we have, you tower lovers will get your crane soon enough. Both JEA and Baptist Health have future plans for highrises. Neither is dependent on the market for office and residential construction.

[howfam]

I think for a true evaluation, you'll need to look outside of consolidation and into cities that have annexed hundreds of miles since 1950 as well. Nearly all cities saw their urban cores fall into decline between the 1950s and 1980s. The reasons are pretty much the same.....white flight, black flight, poor public school systems, subsidizing suburban growth, racism, decline in manufacturing, etc. Since then, some have been more successful than others in bringing life back to their center cities. The most successful, are generally those with consistent goals and leadership. Then there are a few exceptions due to once-in-a-generation events, etc. Nevertheless, even today the overall the urban growth patterns for American cities are pretty consistent across the US, with scale playing a major role in how we perceive them.

Lakelander. You used a key word "annexation". Jax's model was one of both consolidation and annexation in which those small outlying areas : Arlington, Oceanway Densmore etc,. were actually absorbed into the city of Jax thereby losing their independent status. Some cities simply consolidate city county governments/services without annexation such Miami- Dade did a few years back. As such Miami is still not even in the top 25 largest cities in the U.S. in terms of actual city population , while Jax is 11th or 12th in the U.S.- For all its worth, it does boost the image of the city and give it something to boast about and to promote when trying to attract big business. Another positive effect of consolidation in Jax's case.

[howfam]

If that orange in the map is the "old" Jacksonville, I admit, I am shocked!  I thought/assumed it was MUCH bigger than that, pre-consolidation.  Am I misinterpreting that map?  Probably because of what you noted about the sprawl.  You get two miles outside of Flint, you are back into cornfields on I-69 and I-75!  Jacksonville, even beyond that orange section was already far more developed back then.  I just believed that most of what is inside the 295 ring would have been Jacksonville, proper.

TimmyB: I saw a map a few years ago that showed the old city of Jax boundaries before consolidation , and Beaver St. and Edgewood Av. was as far west as it went.

[thelakelander]

Jax didn't annex other cities during the 1960s. When both the City of Jax and Duval County's governments were blown up and replaced by a new single entity, Duval County's 4 other municipalities remained. Places like Arlington and Oceanway were unincorporated areas of the former Duval County government. Previously incorporated cities like Murray Hill, South Jacksonville, LaVilla, East Jacksonville and Fairfield became parts of Jax prior to WW2.

[jaxnyc79]

Downtown development groups like the DIA and old DIA are good, but onl as effective as the administration calling the shots. Downtown might benefit from a more empowered neighborhood org like RAP, but it doesn't have the population yet. There just aren't enough people living there.

I couldn't agree more, but they don't need to live there. A business association could be just as effective if not more so. A non-profit, probably membership driven from people anywhere, could do great things as well.

if the people lead, the leaders will follow.     

Perhaps the DIA can evolve to that. RAP naturally works because of people's passions in the neighborhoods that they raise their families in. My thought is the structure of the DIA isn't bad. It seems like Aundra Wallace is the most successful person I've seen yet in that role, and the DIA has made more progress than the 1,238,264 versions before it. I do think the DIA board should potentially be expanded. Right now, you have 9 people:

Jim Bailey (Chair) - former owner of the Daily Record
Jack Meeks (VC) - CPA, lives in Springfield I believe
Craig Gibbs - Lawyer, office on the Southbank
Oliver Barakat - Real Estate, does a good amount of business downtown
Dane Grey - In the Parking Business. I don't know his views, but we've botched parking downtown so long that this concerns me
Braxton Gillam - Lawyer, office on Bay St.
Marc Padgett - CEO of Summit Contracting Group (1000 Riverside). Not technically downtown but about as close as you can be without being in the border
Brenna Durden - Lawyer, office in Brooklyn. Not sure if that office is the HQ as the firm has 4 Florida offices.
Ron Moody - Real Estate appraiser, office on the Southbank.

They're missing a few things here:

- Not one in retail. I know a CPA office is small business, but a CPA doesn't depend on foot traffic. No one walks by a CPA office and says off the cuff, "Let me stop in and do my taxes." I'm not sure who I'd nominate here.
- No one in the restaurant industry. The needs here are different than retail shops. I'd nominate Allan DeVault here (Partner in Bellwether/Black Sheep/Orsay)
- Curious if any of these folks live downtown full time (I don't mean have a condo they rent out). If not, that's a HUGE miss.
- Dare I say it, but they should have one representative from JTA. I can't believe I'm saying this about an organization that was led by Michael Blaylock for about 15 years but they're doing really good things with better leadership.

There's probably other useful people here. I'm not saying throw anyone off because I don't know who's doing a good job or not - though a board of 1/3 attorney's strikes me as odd. Maybe expand the board because there are critical voices from industries that aren't here.

I do think that Consolidation has hurt downtown in some ways. While they may have been mitigated with better leadership, there are definitely negatives to it. There's no incentive to live in the city, as services and incentives are offered to everyone in the county. Now to be clear - I'm not saying given where Jacksonville was in the 1960s it was the wrong move. There was a lot of crap in the 60s that consolidation fixed very quickly.

Some leaders have had incentive programs that direct funds north and west of the city, including the Northbank. Delaney had one that Peyton quickly trashed (shocker). I don't remember how successful it was.

Thanks for this entry, very helpful.  I really like your suggestions for other appointments.  If I recall correctly, the Mayor appoints some, and the Council president, others.

[vicupstate]

Downtown development groups like the DIA and old DIA are good, but onl as effective as the administration calling the shots. Downtown might benefit from a more empowered neighborhood org like RAP, but it doesn't have the population yet. There just aren't enough people living there.

I couldn't agree more, but they don't need to live there. A business association could be just as effective if not more so. A non-profit, probably membership driven from people anywhere, could do great things as well.

if the people lead, the leaders will follow.     

Perhaps the DIA can evolve to that. RAP naturally works because of people's passions in the neighborhoods that they raise their families in. My thought is the structure of the DIA isn't bad. It seems like Aundra Wallace is the most successful person I've seen yet in that role, and the DIA has made more progress than the 1,238,264 versions before it. I do think the DIA board should potentially be expanded. Right now, you have 9 people:

Jim Bailey (Chair) - former owner of the Daily Record
Jack Meeks (VC) - CPA, lives in Springfield I believe
Craig Gibbs - Lawyer, office on the Southbank
Oliver Barakat - Real Estate, does a good amount of business downtown
Dane Grey - In the Parking Business. I don't know his views, but we've botched parking downtown so long that this concerns me
Braxton Gillam - Lawyer, office on Bay St.
Marc Padgett - CEO of Summit Contracting Group (1000 Riverside). Not technically downtown but about as close as you can be without being in the border
Brenna Durden - Lawyer, office in Brooklyn. Not sure if that office is the HQ as the firm has 4 Florida offices.
Ron Moody - Real Estate appraiser, office on the Southbank.

They're missing a few things here:

- Not one in retail. I know a CPA office is small business, but a CPA doesn't depend on foot traffic. No one walks by a CPA office and says off the cuff, "Let me stop in and do my taxes." I'm not sure who I'd nominate here.
- No one in the restaurant industry. The needs here are different than retail shops. I'd nominate Allan DeVault here (Partner in Bellwether/Black Sheep/Orsay)
- Curious if any of these folks live downtown full time (I don't mean have a condo they rent out). If not, that's a HUGE miss.
- Dare I say it, but they should have one representative from JTA. I can't believe I'm saying this about an organization that was led by Michael Blaylock for about 15 years but they're doing really good things with better leadership.

There's probably other useful people here. I'm not saying throw anyone off because I don't know who's doing a good job or not - though a board of 1/3 attorney's strikes me as odd. Maybe expand the board because there are critical voices from industries that aren't here.

I do think that Consolidation has hurt downtown in some ways. While they may have been mitigated with better leadership, there are definitely negatives to it. There's no incentive to live in the city, as services and incentives are offered to everyone in the county. Now to be clear - I'm not saying given where Jacksonville was in the 1960s it was the wrong move. There was a lot of crap in the 60s that consolidation fixed very quickly.

Some leaders have had incentive programs that direct funds north and west of the city, including the Northbank. Delaney had one that Peyton quickly trashed (shocker). I don't remember how successful it was.

The DDA/DIA agencies had/have their function and for the most part have done ok. Historically speaking Frank Nero and Paul Krutko did great work as Exe. Directors and the work they did was interrupted for a significant period unfortunately.

However, the DIA will never be able to do for Downtown what RAP does for it's 'client'. It will always carry water for the city, and by extension for the incumbent Mayor, first and foremost. The city pays the bills and has it's own priorities (like budget pressures) to consider.   The better model for what I am talking about would be the 5 Points and San Marco Merchants Associations.  A private entity that has the ability and the 'charge' to make sure that DT interests are protected.   

Independence is necessary because sometimes it is the city itself that requires the pushback. An example of that would be holding the line on design guidelines (ie Brooklyn GATE station, Parador garage across from the Landing). Other examples would be lobbying to put funding into the Historic Rehab fund or not diverting funding from the TIFs that are suppose to be dedicated to the Northbank and Southbank respectively.  They could also lobby the city to bring its parking meters out of the 1950s and do more street sweeping and cleanup. They could also be an independent but impacted arbitar over troublesome issues like Hemming Plaza and the never-ending Landing fiasco.   

The retailiers, restuaranteurs, etc. that you mentioned would be a fit perfect to govern such a organization.   

Like anything else in life, Rome won't be built in a day, but this element would bring some much needed focus and CONTIGUITY (which I think we all agreee has been missing) to DT redevelopment.         
   

[howfam]

Jax didn't annex other cities during the 1960s. When both the City of Jax and Duval County's governments were blown up and replaced by a new single entity, Duval County's 4 other municipalities remained. Places like Arlington and Oceanway were unincorporated areas of the former Duval County government. Previously incorporated cities like Murray Hill, South Jacksonville, LaVilla, East Jacksonville and Fairfield became parts of Jax prior to WW2.

Well, whether unincorporated or simply  independent, Arlington and Oceanway,  etc. were not counted in Jax's population or land area before consolidation in 1968, and therefore after being absorbed, helped boost those elements that propelled Jax to the #1 spot in Fla. in both land area and city population.

[thelakelander]

That's not unique with most city county consolidations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_city-county

If anything, what Miami and Dade County did is more unique. Overall, those numbers don't matter from a market standpoint. The City of Miami may only officially be 36 square miles with 453,000 residents but the actual urban area is still 5.5 million (#4 largest in US).

So it's not surprising that Miami's downtown would be significantly larger than a much smaller urban area like Jax's (#40 at 1.06 million) despite Jax's larger city population number.

If anything about consolidation is a symbolic negative, it's the city population number that makes many assume that Jax's DT should be significantly larger than it is. In reality, we're a lot closer to Grand Rapids, MI or Providence, RI and not San Francisco or whatever else is in that US largest cities by population list. Even Orlando and Charlotte are more than twice our size today in reality. Understanding that will help put expectations of what DT Jax is and can become (in the short term) in better perspective.

[howfam]

That's not unique with most city county consolidations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_city-county

If anything, what Miami and Dade County did is more unique. Overall, those numbers don't matter from a market standpoint. The City of Miami may only officially be 36 square miles with 453,000 residents but the actual urban area is still 5.5 million (#4 largest in US).

So it's not surprising that Miami's downtown would be significantly larger than a much smaller urban area like Jax's (#40 at 1.06 million) despite Jax's larger city population number.

If anything about consolidation is a symbolic negative, it's the city population number that makes many assume that Jax's DT should be significantly larger than it is. In reality, we're a lot closer to Grand Rapids, MI or Providence, RI and not San Francisco or whatever else is in that US largest cities by population list. Even Orlando and Charlotte are more than twice our size today in reality. Understanding that will help put expectations of what DT Jax is and can become (in the short term) in better perspective.

If Charlotte and Orlando are twice the size of Jax,  it's not actual size as you say but metro area only. Actual size is what a city can legally claim as part of their city populations. Latest figures show Jax as 12th or 13th in city population in the U.S., and positioned to be the 1st city in Florida to ever reach a million residents in the next few years. And no other city, except maybe Charlotte is close enough to eclipse Jax in the short run. These are the facts.

[DrQue]

Back to the bus station... Any other thoughts on what may happen?

[thelakelander]

That's not unique with most city county consolidations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_city-county

If anything, what Miami and Dade County did is more unique. Overall, those numbers don't matter from a market standpoint. The City of Miami may only officially be 36 square miles with 453,000 residents but the actual urban area is still 5.5 million (#4 largest in US).

So it's not surprising that Miami's downtown would be significantly larger than a much smaller urban area like Jax's (#40 at 1.06 million) despite Jax's larger city population number.

If anything about consolidation is a symbolic negative, it's the city population number that makes many assume that Jax's DT should be significantly larger than it is. In reality, we're a lot closer to Grand Rapids, MI or Providence, RI and not San Francisco or whatever else is in that US largest cities by population list. Even Orlando and Charlotte are more than twice our size today in reality. Understanding that will help put expectations of what DT Jax is and can become (in the short term) in better perspective.

If Charlotte and Orlando are twice the size of Jax,  it's not actual size as you say but metro area only. Actual size is what a city can legally claim as part of their city populations. Latest figures show Jax as 12th or 13th in city population and positioned to be the 1st city in Florida to ever reach a million residents in the next few years. And no other city except maybe Charlotte is close enough to eclipse Jax in the short run. These are the facts.

The fact is Jax is Florida's 4th largest metropolitan and urban area and will remain so for the foreseeable future. The market is driven by people and not the number of trees spread across remote undeveloped land areas. As such, DT Jax will not match the amount of growth and development happening in Florida's larger communities anytime soon, short of an unforeseen disaster negatively impacting one of them. Nevertheless, that's okay. Jax can still work to have the best DT for a market its size that creativity, social equity and money can buy.

[thelakelander]

Back to the bus station... Any other thoughts on what may happen?

My best guess is it will become something that will involve parking as a major component. I doubt a highrise of any sort materializes.

[DrQue]

Back to the bus station... Any other thoughts on what may happen?

My best guess is it will become something that will involve parking as a major component. I doubt a highrise of any sort materializes.

Really too bad because this part of downtown is covered in parking, both surface and structured:

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.327361,-81.6628543,645m/data=!3m1!1e3

[FlaBoy]

That's not unique with most city county consolidations.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_city-county

If anything, what Miami and Dade County did is more unique. Overall, those numbers don't matter from a market standpoint. The City of Miami may only officially be 36 square miles with 453,000 residents but the actual urban area is still 5.5 million (#4 largest in US).

So it's not surprising that Miami's downtown would be significantly larger than a much smaller urban area like Jax's (#40 at 1.06 million) despite Jax's larger city population number.

If anything about consolidation is a symbolic negative, it's the city population number that makes many assume that Jax's DT should be significantly larger than it is. In reality, we're a lot closer to Grand Rapids, MI or Providence, RI and not San Francisco or whatever else is in that US largest cities by population list. Even Orlando and Charlotte are more than twice our size today in reality. Understanding that will help put expectations of what DT Jax is and can become (in the short term) in better perspective.

If Charlotte and Orlando are twice the size of Jax,  it's not actual size as you say but metro area only. Actual size is what a city can legally claim as part of their city populations. Latest figures show Jax as 12th or 13th in city population and positioned to be the 1st city in Florida to ever reach a million residents in the next few years. And no other city except maybe Charlotte is close enough to eclipse Jax in the short run. These are the facts.

The fact is Jax is Florida's 4th largest metropolitan and urban area and will remain so for the foreseeable future. The market is driven by people and not the number of trees spread across remote undeveloped land areas. As such, DT Jax will not match the amount of growth and development happening in Florida's larger communities anytime soon, short of an unforeseen disaster negatively impacting one of them. Nevertheless, that's okay. Jax can still work to have the best DT for a market its size that creativity, social equity and money can buy.

There is also something to thinking about this regionally as well. Jacksonville is the largest metro and job haven of the Southern Atlantic Coastal region running from SC or even Wilmington south. There are more and more South Carolinians moving this way for good jobs. We are also the second largest greater metro incorporating parts of Georgia.