Greyhound bus station sold for $2.78 million

[jaxnyc79]

Nashville and OKC are two of the most successful US DT revitalization examples out there, consolidation or not. Neither was significantly large before WW2 to begin with, so they won't be a Philly, Boston or San Francisco but they're scale is applicable to Jax.

This. Both are major success stories in terms of downtown revitalization, and both are peers to Jacksonville. I'd consider them better examples to follow than, say, Orlando. OKC especially, as they've totally turned around over the last 30 years.

I never said Orlando was an ideal.  Only that it was vastly improved from what I'd seen previously, and that given Orlando is just down the road from Jax, it seemed laughable for the Chamber to travel all the way to Toronto when an example of downtown transformation was so close by.  Also, to some degree, I imagine state interference plays a role in a downtown's prospects, all the more reason Florida cities may have better lessons to give than a foreign city.  Having said that, many American downtowns have confronted a range of common challenges.

[Tacachale]

As far as annexation into the old Jacksonville, there is one very big factor that is left out of the comparison to Tampa, and other FL cities.
Prior to Consolidation JAX had a very byzantine, ineffecient, ineffective and corrupt government. There were effectively TWO City Council type legislative boards. Consolidation did away with most of those issues but in the absence of that, why would anyone vote to become a part of that?       

I have never heard of the same problems in Tampa, Orlando, St. Pete.  I have heard similar about Miami in past decades and that is probably a big reason why the suburbs did their own incorporations to avoid annexation to Miami.   

I am pretty sure there were at least two, if not three, major anenxations that failed between 1932 and 1968. I can verify that at home tonight.   

While it is certainly possible some expansion of the city's limits might have happened at some point, I doubt it would be at the level being assumed in this discussion.

I doubt consolidation could have gotten through if annexations couldn't. Jax was more similar to Tampa in that era than to Miami (though Miami has annexed a sizable area). Dade County already had a lot of incorporated municipalities popping up; Duval, like Hillsborough, didn't.

[vicupstate]

Consolidation completed revamped the entire city and county government from top to bottom. Annexation would not have changed a thing about how the city governemnt operated, except to add tax base and a small minority of new citizens. They are not at all comparable.  Consolidation passed 2-1 countywide and even passed in the Beaches communities. All annexations in the prior 30 years failed by large margins.   

[jaxnyc79]

So maybe we move on from the annexation or city-consolidation discussion, and address governance.  What about something like the Neptune Beach City Council, for just Core City Jacksonville?

[thelakelander]

I'm lost. Why create an independent city for the core? I'm not following how that's supposed to benefit DT. We'd create a mini-Detriot. Basically a declining population and tax base that's responsible for aging infrastructure built to support a population twice its size.

[vicupstate]

The issue isn't government structure. It is  ineffective leadership, part of which is structural. JAX City Council isn't structured any differently than most cities. It's Mayor is much more powerful than most cities, particualrly Southern cities.

[jaxnyc79]

I'm lost. Why create an independent city for the core? I'm not following how that's supposed to benefit DT. We'd create a mini-Detriot. Basically a declining population and tax base that's responsible for aging infrastructure built to support a population twice its size.

Well, not necessarily an independent city, maybe a quasi-independent one, that still has representation on the council, but has a separate sub-council comprised of core city residents to be solely focused on core city interests, in recognition of the fact that core city interests are very different than the at-large, suburban ones.  At the same time, downtown would still benefit from county-wide services, where appropriate, and would receive the benefit of COJ bond-issuances, where appropriate.

[BenderRodriguez]

So maybe we move on from the annexation or city-consolidation discussion, and address governance.  What about something like the Neptune Beach City Council, for just Core City Jacksonville?

This is already addressed in the form of a Special District for the downtown area. The Special District is named "Downtown Redevelopment Area (DRA)" and the governing body for the DRA is the "Downtown Investment Authority (DIA)".  Taken directly from COJ.net:

The Downtown Investment Authority was created to revitalize Jacksonville's urban core by utilizing Community Redevelopment Area (CRA) resources to spur economic development. The DIA's projects will be guided by a nine-member board of directors who will conduct open-to-the-public business on an unpaid, volunteer basis. Of the nine, five are appointed by the mayor and four by the council president. All nine are confirmed by the Jacksonville City Council.

It doesn't get anymore "go out there and specifically make downtown better" than that.

[jaxnyc79]

Interesting.  I haven't really thought of the DIA as a Community Council, but rather just an economic development commission available to negotiate incentives.  But based on the description of its charter, I suppose there's nothing really stopping it from operating in many other capacities.  Are any of the DIA members urban dwellers (or even core city dwellers)?

[Tacachale]

Downtown development groups like the DIA and old DIA are good, but onl as effective as the administration calling the shots. Downtown might benefit from a more empowered neighborhood org like RAP, but it doesn't have the population yet. There just aren't enough people living there.

[vicupstate]

Downtown development groups like the DIA and old DIA are good, but onl as effective as the administration calling the shots. Downtown might benefit from a more empowered neighborhood org like RAP, but it doesn't have the population yet. There just aren't enough people living there.

I couldn't agree more, but they don't need to live there. A business association could be just as effective if not more so. A non-profit, probably membership driven from people anywhere, could do great things as well.

if the people lead, the leaders will follow.     

[howfam]

Would love to see a mixed use apartment/condo tower here like The Plaza in downtown Orlando. It's a similar footprint to the Greyhound station. The Plaza is 21 stories and two connected towers with several shops and restaurants on the ground floor, parking hidden within the building, a small but great movie theater, offices in one tower and apartment/condos in the other.

It's a great building imo because it fills out the skyline nicely since it looks like two buildings. Also, there is ALWAYS foot traffic in the area because of the density of mixed use.
A building like this would greatly compliment the area and increase all of the numbers we're looking for.

Bravo! My sentiments exactly. It's time for more high rise construction, especially in the heart of downtown where this site is. Enough of these 4 and 5 story wood-frame apartments. Bring on the concrete and steel high rises that will fill out our skyline and make our downtown look like the urban big city that its supposed to look like.

[Steve]

Would love to see a mixed use apartment/condo tower here like The Plaza in downtown Orlando. It's a similar footprint to the Greyhound station. The Plaza is 21 stories and two connected towers with several shops and restaurants on the ground floor, parking hidden within the building, a small but great movie theater, offices in one tower and apartment/condos in the other.

It's a great building imo because it fills out the skyline nicely since it looks like two buildings. Also, there is ALWAYS foot traffic in the area because of the density of mixed use.
A building like this would greatly compliment the area and increase all of the numbers we're looking for.

Bravo! My sentiments exactly. It's time for more high rise construction, especially in the heart of downtown where this site is. Enough of these 4 and 5 story wood-frame apartments. Bring on the concrete and steel high rises that will fill out our skyline and make our downtown look like the urban big city that its supposed to look like.

Yea....Jacksonville tried that. The Plaza was developed by Cameron Kuhn. You'll find renderings of RiverWatch at CityCenter on this site - it was his Jacksonville version. That died when he went Kuhn when the proverbial ATM stopped spitting free money out.

The challenge with concrete highrises is the cost of construction versus what you can sell things for. Take Apartments as an example - they challenge has been building a high-rise apartment building without incentives and being able to pay for it in rent. Downtown struggles to generate the rent that would be needed to cover it. One of the differences in Real Estate prices here versus many cities is in Jacksonville, the building is usually worth more than the dirt it's on. In many other cities, it's the opposite. The difference is that you can charge enough rent to make it work based purely on location. Here, it's a challenge.

Personally, I'd rather mid-rise construction and street level vibrancy than another EverBank Center that's dead at night. I know they built that with a "mall" inside. That doesn't count.

[Steve]

Downtown development groups like the DIA and old DIA are good, but onl as effective as the administration calling the shots. Downtown might benefit from a more empowered neighborhood org like RAP, but it doesn't have the population yet. There just aren't enough people living there.

I couldn't agree more, but they don't need to live there. A business association could be just as effective if not more so. A non-profit, probably membership driven from people anywhere, could do great things as well.

if the people lead, the leaders will follow.     

Perhaps the DIA can evolve to that. RAP naturally works because of people's passions in the neighborhoods that they raise their families in. My thought is the structure of the DIA isn't bad. It seems like Aundra Wallace is the most successful person I've seen yet in that role, and the DIA has made more progress than the 1,238,264 versions before it. I do think the DIA board should potentially be expanded. Right now, you have 9 people:

Jim Bailey (Chair) - former owner of the Daily Record
Jack Meeks (VC) - CPA, lives in Springfield I believe
Craig Gibbs - Lawyer, office on the Southbank
Oliver Barakat - Real Estate, does a good amount of business downtown
Dane Grey - In the Parking Business. I don't know his views, but we've botched parking downtown so long that this concerns me
Braxton Gillam - Lawyer, office on Bay St.
Marc Padgett - CEO of Summit Contracting Group (1000 Riverside). Not technically downtown but about as close as you can be without being in the border
Brenna Durden - Lawyer, office in Brooklyn. Not sure if that office is the HQ as the firm has 4 Florida offices.
Ron Moody - Real Estate appraiser, office on the Southbank.

They're missing a few things here:

- Not one in retail. I know a CPA office is small business, but a CPA doesn't depend on foot traffic. No one walks by a CPA office and says off the cuff, "Let me stop in and do my taxes." I'm not sure who I'd nominate here.
- No one in the restaurant industry. The needs here are different than retail shops. I'd nominate Allan DeVault here (Partner in Bellwether/Black Sheep/Orsay)
- Curious if any of these folks live downtown full time (I don't mean have a condo they rent out). If not, that's a HUGE miss.
- Dare I say it, but they should have one representative from JTA. I can't believe I'm saying this about an organization that was led by Michael Blaylock for about 15 years but they're doing really good things with better leadership.

There's probably other useful people here. I'm not saying throw anyone off because I don't know who's doing a good job or not - though a board of 1/3 attorney's strikes me as odd. Maybe expand the board because there are critical voices from industries that aren't here.

I do think that Consolidation has hurt downtown in some ways. While they may have been mitigated with better leadership, there are definitely negatives to it. There's no incentive to live in the city, as services and incentives are offered to everyone in the county. Now to be clear - I'm not saying given where Jacksonville was in the 1960s it was the wrong move. There was a lot of crap in the 60s that consolidation fixed very quickly.

Some leaders have had incentive programs that direct funds north and west of the city, including the Northbank. Delaney had one that Peyton quickly trashed (shocker). I don't remember how successful it was.

[howfam]

You have 800 square miles of one city to build in; why WOULD you build downtown unless someone offered you a huge incentive?

Or...you have 800 square miles of one city to build in; why WOULD you build in the suburbs unless someone offered you a huge incentive?

Realistically speaking though, from a private standpoint, you build/invest where there's a market to make money. Doesn't really matter if a city is 1,000 square miles or ten. If you're developing for a profit, you could be based in Jax and developing in Seattle or in Chicago and developing in Jax.

I'm not arguing that consolidation has helped downtown Jacksonville. I'm saying not consolidating wouldn't have done anything for downtown either. Jax would just as likely be another Flint, Toledo, Youngstown or Macon. Basically a municipality abandoned by white and black flight, with all the growth and new tax base happening just outside of its borders.

Yes  Lakelander, and the effects of that white-black flight was diminished by consolidation, because in Jax one can move nearly 15 miles in any direction from downtown and still be within the city limits, hence retaining the population and tax base. A good result of consolidation.