Jacksonville’s Civil War Memorials

[Tacachale]

I just wonder how many people defending the "heritage" of these monuments have actually visited them or even were aware of their existence.

The local United Daughters of the Confederacy and the Sons of Confederate Veterans are well aware of all of them, and they're pretty much the most active folks on the heritage front. They actually put up a lot of the historical markers (most of which really give pretty straightforward information) and do a good job maintaining the Confederate graves and other memorials in the cemeteries.

For others, yeah, I doubt many know about all these monuments; some are pretty obscure, and many are on private property.

[Jim]

I just wonder how many people defending the "heritage" of these monuments have actually visited them or even were aware of their existence.

The local United Daughters of the Confederacy and the Sons of Confederate Veterans are well aware of all of them, and they're pretty much the most active folks on the heritage front. They actually put up a lot of the historical markers (most of which really give pretty straightforward information) and do a good job maintaining the Confederate graves and other memorials in the cemeteries.

For others, yeah, I doubt many know about all these monuments; some are pretty obscure, and many are on private property.

I'm more so referring your average southern Joe.  I would expect groups to the cause would be aware of them and their fight for them is at least understandable.  It's the guy yelling on Facebook about erasing history and saving heritage that I ponder.  How many have even been to Hemming, let alone knew a Confederate statue even existed there until this debate began?

[thelakelander]

I doubt the average Joe even knows that we have a Union monument that predates the one at Hemming. I mentioned this at the Times-Union editorial board meeting last week and that was news for a few people there. They also didn't know that Confederate Park was originaly called Dignan Park. Thus, I seriously doubt most know that Jax was a lot more progressive in the 1880s and 1890s than it was during the 20th century Jim Crow era.

[Tacachale]

^What's more is that most don't realize that none of the monuments date to the actual war, and few were even within the first 30 or 40 years after it ended. Other than the Hemming Park and Union monuments, the actual historical sites, and a couple of namings, they're pretty much a 20th century thing in these parts. I've spoken to a number of people on both sides of the debate who were unaware that that was the case, or at least the extent of it. It's really telling to give folks the history of the school namings. To be fair, I didn't even realize that until researching it during the debate over Nathan Bedford Forrest and our discussions here on MJ.

[spuwho]

Chicago Tribune asks, "If you take down these monuments, where does it stop?"

There is a huge statue of Sen. Robert Byrd in the West Virginia statehouse. He served some 30 plus years in Congress.  He used to be the President of the KKK.

What to do?

What about all those Democrats from 1870 all the way to 1965 who blocked any civil rights legislation?

Do we go out and seek their monuments and wipe them out too?

Thomas Jefferson was known to be a serial rapist of one his female slaves, what about that?

Just how far do we want to purge society of history, even when we find it disgusting and undesirable?

  http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/kass/ct-statues-democrats-kass-0820-20170818-column.html

[Tacachale]

Chicago Tribune asks, "If you take down these monuments, where does it stop?"

There is a huge statue of Sen. Robert Byrd in the West Virginia statehouse. He served some 30 plus years in Congress.  He used to be the President of the KKK.

What to do?

What about all those Democrats from 1870 all the way to 1965 who blocked any civil rights legislation?

Do we go out and seek their monuments and wipe them out too?

Thomas Jefferson was known to be a serial rapist of one his female slaves, what about that?

Just how far do we want to purge society of history, even when we find it disgusting and undesirable?

  http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/kass/ct-statues-democrats-kass-0820-20170818-column.html

Everyone draws the line in a different place. Personally, I want it to stay at (some of) the public Confederate memorials. Others like the Take it Down Jax movement want to extend it to other figures like Andrew Jackson and Isaiah Hart. The real issue with Confederate monuments is less the Confederacy or even slavery, than the fact that Confederate symbols have been used as tools of oppression for decades after the war. If that hadn't been the case, there'd far fewer Confederate monuments, and I doubt they'd be as controversial.

[spuwho]

There are no monuments to the Nazis in Germany, but there is still an active neo-Nazi movement there.

While retiring the CSA monuments is probably a good idea, it will not stop any white-supremacists from making noise or trying to get attention.

Purging monuments for "any" activity deemed unjust is too far off the rails because its impossible to establish a consistent set of standards to abide by.

A Patriots fan wants to erect a celebratory monument to Tom Brady on his Atlanta front yard. Where does it end?

[thelakelander]

Orlando's "Johnny Reb" overlooking Lake Eola in 2009

IMO, it stops where each individual community and its leaders want it to stop. Every community and monument has a story of its own and a decision on how to address them should not be the same across the board. However, a lot of dialogue isn't needed to understand and accept the true reason many of these things were erected in the 20th century was really fucked up.

This whole debate really has less to do with the actual Civil War and more to do with the revisionist agendas of segregationist generations after the end of the actual war. There's a reason James Weldon Johnson mentioned in his autobiography that long after the Reconstruction period, Jacksonville was a good town for Negroes and by the early 20th century, it had become a 100% cracker town. There was a reason 16,000 African-American residents left Jacksonville in 1916 alone, to head north (a freaking insane number when you realize we're 800 square miles now and we still don't get 16,000 new residents moving here annually).

Heck, there was a reason the movie industry headed west right around the same exact time African-American's were heading north. That reason had a lot more to do with multicultural oppression and racial terror in the early 20th century and little to do with a war that ended 50 years earlier.

Other than dialogue to understand the context that led to many erections of these monuments, what's really needed are leaders to make a decision and implement one way or the other. This is exactly what happened in Orlando earlier this summer:

Orlando's Confederate statue removed from Lake Eola



Without much fanfare, the Confederate statue that watched over Lake Eola Park for more than 100 years was dismantled Tuesday for its move to Greenwood Cemetery.

City employees began working early in the morning to carefully disassemble the almost 9-ton "Johnny Reb" memorial made of marble and concrete, piece by piece.

The statue had been in Lake Eola Park since 1917, after originally being placed on Magnolia Avenue in 1911. Commissioned by a local chapter of the United Daughters of the Confederacy, the monument has a plaque honoring "soldiers, sailors and statesmen of the Confederate States of America."

Last month, Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer decided to move the statue to the Confederate veterans section of the Greenwood Cemetery after an outcry from former Orlando Sentinel journalist David Porter and other residents, who said the statue was a racist symbol of white supremacy and slavery. At a city council meeting held on the subject, dozens of Confederate supporters from Orlando and other parts of Florida flooded City Hall, demanding that the statue be left in Lake Eola because it honored soldiers who died in the Civil War. But no such demonstrations happened during its removal Tuesday – workers removed the Confederate statue quietly behind a chainlink fence that was set up around the perimeter of the structure.

Lafser says the statue will be repaired and reassembled on top of a new base in the Greenwood Cemetery. The approximate cost to remove and re-erect the statue is about $120,000, but Lafser says those costs could increase. The city is also working with historians to install a plaque near the monument that gives historical context and serves as an educational tool. Overall, the process is expected to take about six weeks.

Price says the Greenwood Cemetery is an appropriate place for the statue because so many of Orlando's historical figures are buried here in the same section, including Orlando Mayor William Jewell and Andrew Jackson Barber, who founded a cattle and agricultural dynasty across Central Florida. The reassembled statue will face north toward the Union states, instead of the way it's facing now, which is west toward Parramore, Orlando's largely African-American neighborhood. Price says the city wants to make sure the statue isn't facing a particular community.

"This is the Confederate section of the cemetery," Price says. "So historically, it belongs here. We're the keeper of the history."

Full article: https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2017/06/20/orlandos-confederate-statue-removed-from-lake-eola

[Jim]

There are no monuments to the Nazis in Germany, but there is still an active neo-Nazi movement there.

While retiring the CSA monuments is probably a good idea, it will not stop any white-supremacists from making noise or trying to get attention.

Purging monuments for "any" activity deemed unjust is too far off the rails because its impossible to establish a consistent set of standards to abide by.

A Patriots fan wants to erect a celebratory monument to Tom Brady on his Atlanta front yard. Where does it end?

It's not about halting the spread of white supremacists. It's about not glorifying their cause or the history and circumstances that drives them.  It's about not perpetuating the reason those statues were erected in the first place.

It's also about not glorifying a history that still has a real world impact and affect on a sizable portion of our population.  I shouldn't have to say this but put yourself in the shoes of a young, impressionable black child that see a statue prominently located in a town square that features a leader from a nation that wanted to keep her race enslaved.  How the hell do you think that makes them feel?  Imagine being told that these statues have more value to the white community than your sense of belonging, your sense of self....your right to live without standing in the shadow of a statue that was erected simply to glorify a history that treated you as cattle that can talk. 

Walk those shoes.  Walk them every. damn. day.  Then let us know if they should still stand.

[thelakelander]

^If anyone can't visualize it and wants to know from that perspective, I can fill you in.  I'm black and just as deep south as they come, my parents graduated high school prior to desegregation and have a laundry list of stories about the KKK, boycotts, dealing with separate but equal and many of my great aunts and uncles got the hell out of Tampa and rural Hillsborough County to head north during the Great Migration. Let's just say our perspective when it comes to heritage is a bit different.

[civil42806]

For what its worth I don't think anyone really cares.  The sudden issue with confederate monuments is fools gold.  Its an issue where anyone who cares can virtue posture.   If anyone remembers we had a high school named bedford forrest.  It was the  issue of the week on this site. 

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-oct-who-was-nathan-bedford-forrest

doubt if anyone has ever cared about the kids in the school since then. certainly sure that NO ONE has ever volunteered or helped these kids.  But the name was changed and we can all feel better about ourselves

[Tacachale]

For what its worth I don't think anyone really cares.  The sudden issue with confederate monuments is fools gold.  Its an issue where anyone who cares can virtue posture.   If anyone remembers we had a high school named bedford forrest.  It was the  issue of the week on this site. 

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-oct-who-was-nathan-bedford-forrest

doubt if anyone has ever cared about the kids in the school since then. certainly sure that NO ONE has ever volunteered or helped these kids.  But the name was changed and we can all feel better about ourselves

I expect the kids who go to school there and their families, who spearheaded the Forrest renaming, do care about themselves and their school.

This type of argument has always sounded like a cop out to me. "Why do anything at all if you can't solve this much bigger, more complex problem first?" They are not mutually exclusive.

That said, Jim's post is a bit of:

[thelakelander]

A certain portion of the population has always cared. They've just been marginalized for much of the country's history. Like hoopla around police brutality, what took place in Charlottesville and this particular debate isn't new either.  Access to technology is just exposing our warts at a much larger scale than say....30 years ago.  At some point, we'll need to address them. It appears that time has finally come.

[Jim]

You know what pisses me off more than the actual white supremacists, KKK and neo-Nazi's?  The people that don't care.  The people that shrug and say, "Doesn't affect me."  It by default grants permission to the oppressors and hate groups to keep going.  Martin Niemöller warned us about such apathy.  You only give a damn when it's about you.

[spuwho]

I will admit without any embarassment, I dont know exactly  how one feels and I havent walked in anyones shoes. I have to take the word of the friends I have.

Some resent it. Some dont really care. Some consider it a point of motivation.

My first warning was some of my high school classmates going south to play spring baseball in the 70's. They came back rolling their eyes at some of treatment they got. But it didnt define their life. They moved on.

By the time I reached college, it was never an issue. We discussed in American History and we spent a good week on the slavery issue. Many friends of mine were very vocal on what it meant to them. I gained yet more understanding.

I spent some brief time at Jesse Jackson's Operation PUSH in Chicago and learned yet more,  more than I had learned my whole life.

The message I got at PUSH was not to let the "white" experience define who you are as a person. Maintain your integrity, honesty and your ability and you will be defined by your accomplishments, not by your color. Dont let the white perception become your personal perception on how to live life.

So if I apply that to the recent discussion on monuments, I would say "dont let who you are be defined by a culture that is obsolete and reflected in old monuments"